Say what you want, but we are where we are due to Jimbo's and the staffs hard work. He has his shortcomings and you could list pros and cons, but I think he deserves a raise and at least a 2 year extension so he can get us in the NC. If he does he should get a huge bonus for winning the NC. On that note would like to see the team use our alternate uniforms a least some. Would like to see the team have the students more involved. We have great tradition and would like to use that to our advantage. Go Noles!
3/1 4:26 PM | IP: Logged
Lets see the product on the field perform in 2013 before we start handing out extensions to Mr. Fisher. Any average coach could have matched what he accomplished last year.
3/1 4:41 PM | IP: Logged
He will get one year extension with no raise. Five year term is standard for other top programs.
Jimbo has done a terrific job with the first leg or "rebuilding." We now have a hard-working team that gives 99% every game.
Let's not forget Jimbo is also learning on the fly how to run the whole show.
The litmus test is how well he takes the staff changes and QB controversy. Can he find that delicate balance of being the taskmaster but flexible in his approach to each player and game? Can he welcome input but keep the high motor running (Belichick being the prime example)?
That's a crucial question and I agree 2013 becomes a huge year for his career.
3/1 5:21 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by RoaminHomey:
Lets see the product on the field perform in 2013 before we start handing out extensions to Mr. Fisher. Any average coach could have matched what he accomplished last year.
What would we need to accomplish for him to get a real extension next season in your opinion? Winning 10 games by default against this horrible schedule and losing to the only two teams worth a damn shouldnt' be enough.
I agree he will get an extension, as Kai mentions, one year no raise,
the meetings that have been held without producing an offer and the delay in even discussing it has sent the message that those who opposed the extension wanted to send
No one is going to allow recruiting to suffer because of the lack of an extension
3/1 6:57 PM | IP: Logged
Recruiting seems to be going just fine without that 5-year window bs. Players know these guys will leave when the grass is greener regardless how many years they have remaining on some meaningless contract. Jimbo should be given a 1 year extension if he goes 10-2 in the regular season in '13, 2 year extension if he goes 11-1 and wins the ACC, 5 year extension if he goes undefeated and wins the ACC, and a freakin 10 year extension if he goes all the way and wins the Title.
Anything below 10-2 in this dogcrap conference and his clock is clicking......
3/1 7:06 PM | IP: Logged
Sad it took so long for that to happen with Bowden.
Kai if you are attempting to compare JF with BB, (which I hope you are not because I think you are too smart to attempt to)
JF has done absolutely nothing that even earns him a spot in a conversation for the 500 greatest college coaches of all time,
BB will be one of the first names mentioned in any conversation for the top five all time greatest coaches
A comparison of BB and JF is like comparing a horse and buggy to the Space Shuttle
This post was edited on 3/1 9:37 PM by Miami Seminole
3/1 9:31 PM | IP: Logged
Just saying if 10 wins is the minimum then Fisher has done that. Bowden did it once his last nine years.
Some of us sat for nearly a decade and watched us underachieve. Just tired of people on this board constantly miserable and acting like we aren't a lot better than we were just 4-5 years ago with a bright future.
10 wins in an embarrassingly easy ACC for a contract EXTENSION.....
3/2 1:35 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Nolebra Kai: Just saying if 10 wins is the minimum then Fisher has done that. Bowden did it once his last nine years.
Some of us sat for nearly a decade and watched us underachieve. Just tired of people on this board constantly miserable and acting like we aren't a lot better than we were just 4-5 years ago with a bright future.
Lets wait until JF is recognized as one of the 500 greatest coaches of all time, before we compare him to one of the greatest coach of all time,
Lets wait until JF is recognized as one of the ten greatest coaches in the country today before we compare him to one of the ten greatest coaches of all time
Lets wait until JF has 37 wins before we compare him to a coach with 377 .
1. Regarding your other comments, who said ten wins is the benchmark, we play 2 FCS teams and the worst conference in the country and you want to beat your chest because you think we accomplished something, please Kai you are better than this argument.
2. If you are going to talk about ten years then lets wait until JF has made a NC game appearance or takes us to BCS bowl 4 out of ten years, JF has taken us to one BCS bowl in three years.
Stick to five years ago and you have a much better argument because if you use ten years, JF has not taken us to a NC game yet and needs to take us to the playoffs three of the next seven years to equal the last ten years of BB's career.
Like I said JF has done some great things and he will get his extension but the message has been sent loud and clear, he promised us greatness in exchange for a commitment, we made the commitment but he has not delivered greatness yet.
This post was edited on 3/2 7:55 AM by Miami Seminole
3/2 7:39 AM | IP: Logged
Very well stated Miami
3/2 8:06 AM | IP: Logged
In fairness he's comparing how fans view the program and what is considered acceptable or successful. I think it's okay if that does change over time: Bowden is the reason Fisher may be held to a higher standard.
3/2 8:19 AM | IP: Logged
Bobby was a great coach. One of the best of all time to be sure. However, it's not fair to compare JF to BB's career record. But the fact is that BB's last 5 years yielded at 8, 7, 7, 9, and 7 wins. JF's first three years yielded 10, 9, and 12 wins. While not perfect, JF turned the program around from where it had been. Same crappy conference too. We need to eliminate bad losses, obviously, but otherwise we're on the right track. Our talent level is also markedly better under JF than it was under BB's last five years, which means we'll always have a chance to be good. He has earned an extension.
3/2 8:55 AM | IP: Logged
Not so fast my friend. I think school is still out on JF. He only beat one decent team last year, lost to an unranked NC State. Lost to FU because he wouldn't pull EJ. and beat a MAC team in the bowl game. Why does he refuse to do something wilth the OL coach? Why does he refuse to hire an OC? Yes 12-2 us a great record, but it was against patsies in beginning and ACC most of the games. Not to mention why the huge coaching turnover. Did he run them off or did they leave on thier own. If he is not the guy we don't want to pay him a lot of money to leave. We need this to play out one more year.
3/2 9:43 AM | IP: Logged
The fate of Jimbo will be is his own doing. How stubborn do you have to be to not see that the OLine is in patchwork status year-end, year-out, and the offense isn't the juggernaut it should be because of the OLine and a lack of play calling innovation. This is a tell-tale year for Jimbo and he knows it.
3/2 10:37 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by seminal: Bobby was a great coach. One of the best of all time to be sure. However, it's not fair to compare JF to BB's career record. But the fact is that BB's last 5 years yielded at 8, 7, 7, 9, and 7 wins. JF's first three years yielded 10, 9, and 12 wins. While not perfect, JF turned the program around from where it had been. Same crappy conference too. We need to eliminate bad losses, obviously, but otherwise we're on the right track. Our talent level is also markedly better under JF than it was under BB's last five years, which means we'll always have a chance to be good. He has earned an extension.
This is why there is a delay in Fisher receiving an extension and probably zero increase.
Bobby was let go because of the final 5 years. And let's not forget that Fisher was a part of the final 3 years.
Many, many folks with money are well aware of Fisher's behind the scenes whining, and they aren't pleased with the results. That's why there is a delay. If his "plan" is to cheapen our schedule, get 10 wins per year vs nobody, he had better rethink his plan.
The current debate isn't about our record being better the last 3 years than Bobby's final 5 years...the debate is about could another coach have accomplished more these past 3 years. Fisher is 13-9 vs teams with winning records and 4-6 vs the Top 25. That's unacceptable for the guy that promised us greatness.
We've already made a number of financial blunders since we hired him. Paying him 612K a year as our OC was one blunder. Making him the HCIW with a 5 million buyout was another blunder. Having to sit back and watch him flirt with every offer that came down the Pike, instigated by his agent, was another blunder, while we had to give him more money. TK was basically asked to leave when it was discovered that after uping his buyout from 2.5 million to 5 million, he gave Fisher permission to talk to West Virginia about their job opening, rather than just firing him, and getting 2.5 million from him. The goal isn't to be better than Bobby's final year...the goal is to return to the elite category that Bobby had us in for the majority of his career at FSU.
He better not lose to Florida again.
3/2 10:43 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by LarryTheNole:
Not so fast my friend. I think school is still out on JF. He only beat one decent team last year, lost to an unranked NC State. Lost to FU because he wouldn't pull EJ. and beat a MAC team in the bowl game. Why does he refuse to do something wilth the OL coach? Why does he refuse to hire an OC? Yes 12-2 us a great record, but it was against patsies in beginning and ACC most of the games. Not to mention why the huge coaching turnover. Did he run them off or did they leave on thier own. If he is not the guy we don't want to pay him a lot of money to leave. We need this to play out one more year.
Excellent points plus struggling to beat an awful GA Tech team in Charlotte...Jimbo acts like he is in the SEC with his OOC scheduling philosophy...
3/2 11:55 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by LarryTheNole Not so fast my friend. I think school is still out on JF. He only beat one decent team last year, lost to an unranked NC State. Lost to FU because he wouldn't pull EJ. and beat a MAC team in the bowl game. Why does he refuse to do something wilth the OL coach? Why does he refuse to hire an OC? Yes 12-2 us a great record, but it was against patsies in beginning and ACC most of the games. Not to mention why the huge coaching turnover. Did he run them off or did they leave on thier own. If he is not the guy we don't want to pay him a lot of money to leave. We need this to play out one more year.
He should be fired if he pulled a senior QB in his final home game...
Originally posted by LarryTheNole Not so fast my friend. I think school is still out on JF. He only beat one decent team last year, lost to an unranked NC State. Lost to FU because he wouldn't pull EJ. and beat a MAC team in the bowl game. Why does he refuse to do something wilth the OL coach? Why does he refuse to hire an OC? Yes 12-2 us a great record, but it was against patsies in beginning and ACC most of the games. Not to mention why the huge coaching turnover. Did he run them off or did they leave on thier own. If he is not the guy we don't want to pay him a lot of money to leave. We need this to play out one more year.
He should be fired if he pulled a senior QB in his final home game...
Originally posted by LarryTheNole Not so fast my friend. I think school is still out on JF. He only beat one decent team last year, lost to an unranked NC State. Lost to FU because he wouldn't pull EJ. and beat a MAC team in the bowl game. Why does he refuse to do something wilth the OL coach? Why does he refuse to hire an OC? Yes 12-2 us a great record, but it was against patsies in beginning and ACC most of the games. Not to mention why the huge coaching turnover. Did he run them off or did they leave on thier own. If he is not the guy we don't want to pay him a lot of money to leave. We need this to play out one more year.
He should be fired if he pulled a senior QB in his final home game...
Obviously you didn't even watch the game, being a senior shouldn't have had any bearing on whether he should have been replaced after what we saw going on. Could Trickett have done better, probably not, but it was most obvious that EJ needed to step back for a series or two and get himself together.
3/2 12:44 PM | IP: Logged
I personally like Jimbo and think he can be a great coach...his ego is getting in the way of that.
Give me a coach that has balls will play anybody anywhere and show me improvement year in year out. I don't care if we go .500+ 1st yr as long as we are imporving and playing tough against top teams. Fans appreciate that and everything goes up...attendance, prestige, and of course revenue. Winning cures all ailment.
His record tells all. Can't beat the big boys. Top 10 talent but can't beat a top 10 team.
3/2 12:53 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by RoaminHomey
Originally posted by jet06d:
Originally posted by LarryTheNole Not so fast my friend. I think school is still out on JF. He only beat one decent team last year, lost to an unranked NC State. Lost to FU because he wouldn't pull EJ. and beat a MAC team in the bowl game. Why does he refuse to do something wilth the OL coach? Why does he refuse to hire an OC? Yes 12-2 us a great record, but it was against patsies in beginning and ACC most of the games. Not to mention why the huge coaching turnover. Did he run them off or did they leave on thier own. If he is not the guy we don't want to pay him a lot of money to leave. We need this to play out one more year.
He should be fired if he pulled a senior QB in his final home game...
All these coaches are laughing among themselves, on their way to the bank. What a racket they've got going! It's been ridiculous for a long time, and it's gotten way out of hand.
I'll be glad to see the bubble burst, though I'm not holding my breath - it is, after all, the opiate of the masses in this country.
3/2 2:05 PM | IP: Logged
Let's not compare Fisher to Bowden, NO COACH in college football today would stand up to that comparison. Let's not compare Fisher to Bowden's first 10 years at FSU. Different time, different situations.
Let's do compare Fisher with the group of coaches that would be potential 'reality' replaces to him. Do not compare Fisher to Saban or Miles or even Beamer. These guys are at the maturity of their careers and none of them are viable replacements for Fisher.
However, as one of the class of 2013 stated that there are some schools who wish to use Fisher's contract (or lack of it) as a recruiting tool. Stupid, but much like when Tommy and Terry Bowden would use Bobby's 'age and retirement' against him (as did many others) but were not around by the time Bowden did retire.
So who do you compare Fisher with? How about the top 3 programs in each conference (excluding those coaches with 6 or more years at a school unless they might replace Fisher)? Would need to find the link but a recent article was written that stated that Fisher's four year contract was shorter than 17 (if I recall correctly) coaches in the Southeastern Region of the US.
Then the other realization is what does the 'market' dictate? What does an extension really mean? What does a contract truly ensure? As we have seen often and repeated every season (just take a Kiffen or Petrino) coaches leave for more money or another location they like better OR Boosters get upset with a coach and buy out his contract.
To me this is the biggest reason to realize that contract or not Fisher will only be at FSU as long as FSU wins enough games for him to keep his job. If the administration want to keep Fisher from looking elsewhere like Kelly (Oregon) they have to lock him up and agree to pay an outlandish buyout if he get fired AND agree that Fisher has to pay an outlandish penalty to leave. Otherwise, give him a rollover contract for always five years and keep the buyouts to a minimum for both sides. Afterall, should FSU have a coach they do not want and should a coach remain at FSU if he does not want to be here.
Not a hard decision to make, just have to decide which is it FSU wants to have, Fisher for life, Fisher until one side or the other decides to pay off the other to get 'divorced.'
Or finally what truly should be the case, Fisher as long as he maintains a high level program and rewarded appropriately for it. That can be accomplished with performance bonuses that have teeth, not a base salary of $2.5 million and $50,000 for winning the MNC but rather a $1.5 million salary and $250,000 for winning to Atlantic Division, $250,000 for winning the ACC title, $250,000 for winning a playoff game and $500,000 for winning the Title game.
3/2 6:10 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Lanoles: Let's not compare Fisher to Bowden, NO COACH in college football today would stand up to that comparison. Let's not compare Fisher to Bowden's first 10 years at FSU. Different time, different situations.
Let's do compare Fisher with the group of coaches that would be potential 'reality' replaces to him. Do not compare Fisher to Saban or Miles or even Beamer. These guys are at the maturity of their careers and none of them are viable replacements for Fisher.
However, as one of the class of 2013 stated that there are some schools who wish to use Fisher's contract (or lack of it) as a recruiting tool. Stupid, but much like when Tommy and Terry Bowden would use Bobby's 'age and retirement' against him (as did many others) but were not around by the time Bowden did retire.
So who do you compare Fisher with? How about the top 3 programs in each conference (excluding those coaches with 6 or more years at a school unless they might replace Fisher)? Would need to find the link but a recent article was written that stated that Fisher's four year contract was shorter than 17 (if I recall correctly) coaches in the Southeastern Region of the US.
Then the other realization is what does the 'market' dictate? What does an extension really mean? What does a contract truly ensure? As we have seen often and repeated every season (just take a Kiffen or Petrino) coaches leave for more money or another location they like better OR Boosters get upset with a coach and buy out his contract.
To me this is the biggest reason to realize that contract or not Fisher will only be at FSU as long as FSU wins enough games for him to keep his job. If the administration want to keep Fisher from looking elsewhere like Kelly (Oregon) they have to lock him up and agree to pay an outlandish buyout if he get fired AND agree that Fisher has to pay an outlandish penalty to leave. Otherwise, give him a rollover contract for always five years and keep the buyouts to a minimum for both sides. Afterall, should FSU have a coach they do not want and should a coach remain at FSU if he does not want to be here.
Not a hard decision to make, just have to decide which is it FSU wants to have, Fisher for life, Fisher until one side or the other decides to pay off the other to get 'divorced.'
Or finally what truly should be the case, Fisher as long as he maintains a high level program and rewarded appropriately for it. That can be accomplished with performance bonuses that have teeth, not a base salary of $2.5 million and $50,000 for winning the MNC but rather a $1.5 million salary and $250,000 for winning to Atlantic Division, $250,000 for winning the ACC title, $250,000 for winning a playoff game and $500,000 for winning the Title game.
shhhhhh..comparing apples to apples would make too much sense. Bobby's last five years were an embarrassment. Bobby's entire career was easily top five material. Fisher/FSU's progress over the next two seasons will decide the future of both. FSU replaces a lot this season there may be some modest 'expectation reduction' this year. 2014 should see FSU's expectation sky high. A senior laden OL. An experienced QB. Stout defense with talent at every position. Etc. Barring a total collapse that I do not foresee for 2013....Fisher has two years to prove he IS the coach of the future. 2012 was an improvement for the previous 8+ seasons. A similar year in 2014 will be seen as Fisher's 'ceiling' and it will be up to the admin's if that is successful or not. Personally, my expectation is a serious run at the MNC in 2014...if not, it may be time for a change.
Here is a novel idea....how about let's see what happens an enjoy the ride versus griping? Things are, after all, much better now than they have been in nearly a decade.
3/2 8:35 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by kellylexy:
shhhhhh..comparing apples to apples would make too much sense. Bobby's last five years were an embarrassment.
Kelly BB's worst season was 7-6, if that is an embarrassment than what do you call the AL program that Saban inherited and turned into a National Championship team in three years.
How about the Notre Dame team that Kelly took and turned into a National Champion game participant in his third year
I think Jimbo has done a lot of good things for our program in fact some great things, but I get really tired of people talking about the roster JF inherited as totally devoid of talent despite the fact it had 15 players who were drafted or are currently playing in the NFL.
Or the people who feel it is necessary to try to portray FSU as a dumpster fire when JF took it over.
JF was the OC for three years before he became the HC, any shortcomings or issues with the offense when JF took over are squarely on his shoulders.
The roster he inherited had more talent than several teams that have won or played for a National Championship in the last few years.
Can we stop trying to make BB look bad in order to try to make JF look good.
Again JF has been sent a very clear message, I think he got the message loud and clear
This post was edited on 3/2 9:17 PM by Miami Seminole
3/2 9:16 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by kellylexy:
shhhhhh..comparing apples to apples would make too much sense. Bobby's last five years were an embarrassment. Bobby's entire career was easily top five material. Fisher/FSU's progress over the next two seasons will decide the future of both. FSU replaces a lot this season there may be some modest 'expectation reduction' this year. 2014 should see FSU's expectation sky high. A senior laden OL. An experienced QB. Stout defense with talent at every position. Etc. Barring a total collapse that I do not foresee for 2013....Fisher has two years to prove he IS the coach of the future. 2012 was an improvement for the previous 8+ seasons. A similar year in 2014 will be seen as Fisher's 'ceiling' and it will be up to the admin's if that is successful or not. Personally, my expectation is a serious run at the MNC in 2014...if not, it may be time for a change.
Here is a novel idea....how about let's see what happens an enjoy the ride versus griping? Things are, after all, much better now than they have been in nearly a decade.
I have to take exception to the saying Bobby's last five years were an embarrassment. Yes it is in the eyes of the beholder. Were they up to the FSU standard BEFORE BOBBY? - most certainly in fact a major improvement. Were they up to the standard Bobby built in the 14 year run? Most certainly not.
But look at the years what did happen 2005 8 -5 BCS Bowl (loss) 2006 - 7-6 Bowl win 2007 2007 7 - 6 Bowl Loss (with the loss of suspended players for MUSIC CLASS) 2008 9 - 4 Bowl Win 2009 7 - 6 Bowl win.
There are most likely 100+ programs who while not loving those results wish to goodness over the same period they had done as good. For a top 15 or better program expectation not happy, however, embarrassment - not even close. FSU is the only program since 1976 that has not had a losing season. Again, it that great, hardly but at the same time it is only an embarrassment to some FSU fans who because of the 90's expect near perfection every season.
As far as Fisher/FSU making a serious run at the MNC in 2014 will happen, will it succeed at making it to the playoff (one of the four best teams as per some unknown committee, who knows. At least, when the season kicks off FSU will be one of the teams expected to do so. Just look at what happened to USC this past season with what most media and fans thought was a given. It does not always happen.
3/2 10:04 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Lanoles:
Just look at what happened to USC this past season with what most media and fans thought was a given. It does not always happen.
Just like FSU this season, no?
3/2 10:39 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Weil Hall QB:
Originally posted by Lanoles:
Just look at what happened to USC this past season with what most media and fans thought was a given. It does not always happen.
Just like FSU this season, no?
I'd explain it to a Gator but I'd rather not beat my head against a wall. But in case you are not quite that dense, FSU was not preseason top 3 teams, FSU did not finish 7 - 6, FSU did not lose to GT in a bowl game, so YES, just like FSU this season.
3/2 11:06 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Miami Seminole:
Originally posted by kellylexy:
shhhhhh..comparing apples to apples would make too much sense. Bobby's last five years were an embarrassment.
Kelly BB's worst season was 7-6, if that is an embarrassment than what do you call the AL program that Saban inherited and turned into a National Championship team in three years.
How about the Notre Dame team that Kelly took and turned into a National Champion game participant in his third year
I think Jimbo has done a lot of good things for our program in fact some great things, but I get really tired of people talking about the roster JF inherited as totally devoid of talent despite the fact it had 15 players who were drafted or are currently playing in the NFL.
Or the people who feel it is necessary to try to portray FSU as a dumpster fire when JF took it over.
JF was the OC for three years before he became the HC, any shortcomings or issues with the offense when JF took over are squarely on his shoulders.
The roster he inherited had more talent than several teams that have won or played for a National Championship in the last few years.
Can we stop trying to make BB look bad in order to try to make JF look good.
Again JF has been sent a very clear message, I think he got the message loud and clear
This post was edited on 3/2 9:17 PM by Miami Seminole
Sorry guys, but not only losing at HOME to WAKE FOREST, but getting SHUTOUT 33-0...was a complete and utter EMBARRASSMENT to FSU football and around the country. I won't even bring up the other losses during those last years. If some of you are ok with that and not embarrassed then so be it. That is your issue and expectations of FSU football. NOT MINE!
Bobby deserves all the credit in the world and I think everyone acknowledges that for his career achievement prior to the ~2003/2004. Many have stated this countless times. No true Seminole does not recognize this. However, change was LONG overdue when it finally came. He needed to wrap things up in 2006 at the latest.
Bobby's staff did not recruit very well and I disagree with the assertion there was enough talent to win national championships. The roster was certainly not devoid of talent, either, but many of those top stars never stuck it out...or lasted very long. The defensive line with guys like Bud Thacker and Kendall Stewart was not even close to MNC caliber. The front seven was undersized and out matched. Like I said....Wake Forest, GaTech, etc pushed us around like rag dolls. UF took a knee against us on our home field. It was embarrassing. Yes it was. At least to me.
Now, I totally agree people should not bring down BB, but there is nothing wrong with calling it like it is and it was not a good product. I also feel one should not bring down JF. BB is the face of FSU similar to Bryant at 'Bama. That does not mean another coach cannot come in and FIX things that needed fixing. JF significantly upgraded this program and brought it into the 21st century. This included much more thorough recruiting that has shown much less attrition and better production on the field. This does not mean JF has done everything well. The QB has underperformed to a degree here. The OL needs to catch up to the DL. Fisher also needs to manage game day better e.g. NCSU '12. He has two more years, IMO. So far the program has continued to ascend. The record and talent level has not been better in nearly a decade. The facilities and staff has been upgraded and they are being held accountable. I am sure the admins and boosters are doing the same for Fisher....as it should be.
I have no issue with being judicious with contract extensions/raises. I hated the idea of giving BB a one year contract that he could renew at his discretion. That was idiotic. Perform and you get rewarded/compensated. Under perform and your leash gets shorter. I don't care if the coach is Bear Bryant or Mike Shula, you don't become bigger than the program.
3/2 11:16 PM | IP: Logged
Kelly, no one said some losses were not bad and not an embarrassment but you stated the last 5 years were an embarrassment. Not as bad as losses like LSU to UAB, Alabama to ULM, VT to JMU, Michigan to Appy State.
One thing we can agree on is the next couple of years will tell whether or not Fisher is going to make it or not. I too feel he has FSU headed in the right direction.
The most impressive accomplishment to me is for whatever reason the police blotter is not as cluttered as it has been in the past. Hopefully it is a combination of behavior expectations and quality of character of players but it is headed in the right direction. Previously, FSU was not keeping the players on the field on Saturdays they had been counting on to win games and championships.
3/3 12:48 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by kellylexy:
Originally posted by Miami Seminole:
Originally posted by kellylexy:
shhhhhh..comparing apples to apples would make too much sense. Bobby's last five years were an embarrassment.
Kelly BB's worst season was 7-6, if that is an embarrassment than what do you call the AL program that Saban inherited and turned into a National Championship team in three years.
How about the Notre Dame team that Kelly took and turned into a National Champion game participant in his third year
I think Jimbo has done a lot of good things for our program in fact some great things, but I get really tired of people talking about the roster JF inherited as totally devoid of talent despite the fact it had 15 players who were drafted or are currently playing in the NFL.
Or the people who feel it is necessary to try to portray FSU as a dumpster fire when JF took it over.
JF was the OC for three years before he became the HC, any shortcomings or issues with the offense when JF took over are squarely on his shoulders.
The roster he inherited had more talent than several teams that have won or played for a National Championship in the last few years.
Can we stop trying to make BB look bad in order to try to make JF look good.
Again JF has been sent a very clear message, I think he got the message loud and clear
Sorry guys, but not only losing at HOME to WAKE FOREST, but getting SHUTOUT 33-0...was a complete and utter EMBARRASSMENT to FSU football and around the country. I won't even bring up the other losses during those last years. If some of you are ok with that and not embarrassed then so be it. That is your issue and expectations of FSU football. NOT MINE!
Bobby deserves all the credit in the world and I think everyone acknowledges that for his career achievement prior to the ~2003/2004. Many have stated this countless times. No true Seminole does not recognize this. However, change was LONG overdue when it finally came. He needed to wrap things up in 2006 at the latest.
Bobby's staff did not recruit very well and I disagree with the assertion there was enough talent to win national championships. The roster was certainly not devoid of talent, either, but many of those top stars never stuck it out...or lasted very long. The defensive line with guys like Bud Thacker and Kendall Stewart was not even close to MNC caliber. The front seven was undersized and out matched. Like I said....Wake Forest, GaTech, etc pushed us around like rag dolls. UF took a knee against us on our home field. It was embarrassing. Yes it was. At least to me.
Now, I totally agree people should not bring down BB, but there is nothing wrong with calling it like it is and it was not a good product. I also feel one should not bring down JF. BB is the face of FSU similar to Bryant at 'Bama. That does not mean another coach cannot come in and FIX things that needed fixing. JF significantly upgraded this program and brought it into the 21st century. This included much more thorough recruiting that has shown much less attrition and better production on the field. This does not mean JF has done everything well. The QB has underperformed to a degree here. The OL needs to catch up to the DL. Fisher also needs to manage game day better e.g. NCSU '12. He has two more years, IMO. So far the program has continued to ascend. The record and talent level has not been better in nearly a decade. The facilities and staff has been upgraded and they are being held accountable. I am sure the admins and boosters are doing the same for Fisher....as it should be.
I have no issue with being judicious with contract extensions/raises. I hated the idea of giving BB a one year contract that he could renew at his discretion. That was idiotic. Perform and you get rewarded/compensated. Under perform and your leash gets shorter. I don't care if the coach is Bear Bryant or Mike Shula, you don't become bigger than the program.
Kelly a couple of things, you said are being challenged maybe you did not intend for us to take them as we interpreted them.
"Bobby's last five years were an embarrassment. ", when challenged you bring up a few games, including the 2006 WF game. In WF (11-3) won the ACC championship in 2006. If you think that is a embarrassment what do you call the NCSt game this year?? UM (664), UNC (570), Clemson (754) humiliated a 7-6 NCSt defense, we score 16 points (300), that is a more embarrassing loss to me than a loss to the ACC champion who that year just happened to be named WF. UF won two NC's in a three year span and competed for four in a five year span, embarrassing losses to a NC team, I disagree.
Does the NCSt game mean this "season" was an embarrassment, hardly. For more than half of the programs in D1 a 7-6 record would be considered a success, if we consider it is a failure it is only because it is measured against the standard BB set for the program. As LA mentioned we are the only team without a losing season in almost 40 years. In 2008 we were 8-4, JF was 9-4 in 2011, was his second season an embarrassment??
You said, "Bobby's staff did not recruit very well", the roster that JF inherited had 15 players that were drafted or are currently playing on NFL rosters, an additional 4 players that will be drafted this year. Show me five other teams that had that kind of talent on it's roster over the last five years. I never said it had enough talent to win a NC, I did say that teams have won National Championships in the last five years with less talent than JF inherited.
"That is your issue and expectations of FSU football. NOT MINE!". How were those expectations set?? Who set those expectations??
Let's focus on JF and leave BB out of the conversation, if anyone wants to try to define a 44 year, 377 (411) win career by four years shame on them.
As I mentioned I think JF deserves a no raise extension, the message that was intended to be delivered has been delivered, very loud and very clear.
This post was edited on 3/3 12:44 PM by Miami Seminole
3/3 9:57 AM | IP: Logged
Teams the last five years have won with less than Jimbo herited?
Originally posted by Nolebra Kai: Teams the last five years have won with less than Jimbo inherited?
I can't believe someone can actually think that.
Kai I believe you made some statements that perhaps you would like to reconsider. I think your attempt was to prove a point that would be better argued using different facts.
I believe the worst NFL team will beat the best collegiate team every time, every day, every year. SO if our players are good enough to play in the NFL they are good enough to win collegiately. That's why I believe what I said. When 25% of your roster consists of NFL caliber players to call it a "bare cupboard" is totally ludicrous.
Kai you said in an earlier post, "The cupboard was pretty bare. Dare I post our starting roster in 08-09? We had more guys at the combine this year than we did combined the past three." You are using the combine to prove our talent level has improved, yet you fail to mention that 7 of those players "at the combine this year" were on the 2008-2009 roster, so which is it, bare cupboard or talented, you can't have it both ways.
That same 2008-09 roster contains 15 players drafted or currently playing in the NFL. Between current players in the NFL, players drafted by the NFL, and players invited to the NFL combine, the 08 roster had 22 players (25%) that are NFL caliber players, yet you call it a bare cupboard.
Maybe you could give us YOUR definition of a talented roster, perhaps you could find a better term to describe the 08-09 roster other than a "bare cupboard"
This post was edited on 3/3 12:01 PM by Miami Seminole
3/3 11:16 AM | IP: Logged
This again goes back to the TV contract situation. If FSU could get into a conference that would bring them more money they could offer an extension without worry about whether they might want to turn around and fire the coach later because they could afford the buyout more easily. Notre Dame sure didn't sweat the big amount they owed Charlie Weiss. I doubt most SEC schools, minus Tennessee who is somehow in the red, would hesitate to let a buyout stop them from firing a coach if they wanted to make a change.
3/3 5:43 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Miami Seminole:
Originally posted by kellylexy:
Originally posted by Miami Seminole:
Originally posted by kellylexy:
shhhhhh..comparing apples to apples would make too much sense. Bobby's last five years were an embarrassment.
Kelly BB's worst season was 7-6, if that is an embarrassment than what do you call the AL program that Saban inherited and turned into a National Championship team in three years.
How about the Notre Dame team that Kelly took and turned into a National Champion game participant in his third year
I think Jimbo has done a lot of good things for our program in fact some great things, but I get really tired of people talking about the roster JF inherited as totally devoid of talent despite the fact it had 15 players who were drafted or are currently playing in the NFL.
Or the people who feel it is necessary to try to portray FSU as a dumpster fire when JF took it over.
JF was the OC for three years before he became the HC, any shortcomings or issues with the offense when JF took over are squarely on his shoulders.
The roster he inherited had more talent than several teams that have won or played for a National Championship in the last few years.
Can we stop trying to make BB look bad in order to try to make JF look good.
Again JF has been sent a very clear message, I think he got the message loud and clear
Sorry guys, but not only losing at HOME to WAKE FOREST, but getting SHUTOUT 33-0...was a complete and utter EMBARRASSMENT to FSU football and around the country. I won't even bring up the other losses during those last years. If some of you are ok with that and not embarrassed then so be it. That is your issue and expectations of FSU football. NOT MINE!
Bobby deserves all the credit in the world and I think everyone acknowledges that for his career achievement prior to the ~2003/2004. Many have stated this countless times. No true Seminole does not recognize this. However, change was LONG overdue when it finally came. He needed to wrap things up in 2006 at the latest.
Bobby's staff did not recruit very well and I disagree with the assertion there was enough talent to win national championships. The roster was certainly not devoid of talent, either, but many of those top stars never stuck it out...or lasted very long. The defensive line with guys like Bud Thacker and Kendall Stewart was not even close to MNC caliber. The front seven was undersized and out matched. Like I said....Wake Forest, GaTech, etc pushed us around like rag dolls. UF took a knee against us on our home field. It was embarrassing. Yes it was. At least to me.
Now, I totally agree people should not bring down BB, but there is nothing wrong with calling it like it is and it was not a good product. I also feel one should not bring down JF. BB is the face of FSU similar to Bryant at 'Bama. That does not mean another coach cannot come in and FIX things that needed fixing. JF significantly upgraded this program and brought it into the 21st century. This included much more thorough recruiting that has shown much less attrition and better production on the field. This does not mean JF has done everything well. The QB has underperformed to a degree here. The OL needs to catch up to the DL. Fisher also needs to manage game day better e.g. NCSU '12. He has two more years, IMO. So far the program has continued to ascend. The record and talent level has not been better in nearly a decade. The facilities and staff has been upgraded and they are being held accountable. I am sure the admins and boosters are doing the same for Fisher....as it should be.
I have no issue with being judicious with contract extensions/raises. I hated the idea of giving BB a one year contract that he could renew at his discretion. That was idiotic. Perform and you get rewarded/compensated. Under perform and your leash gets shorter. I don't care if the coach is Bear Bryant or Mike Shula, you don't become bigger than the program.
Kelly a couple of things, you said are being challenged maybe you did not intend for us to take them as we interpreted them.
"Bobby's last five years were an embarrassment. ", when challenged you bring up a few games, including the 2006 WF game. In WF (11-3) won the ACC championship in 2006. If you think that is a embarrassment what do you call the NCSt game this year?? UM (664), UNC (570), Clemson (754) humiliated a 7-6 NCSt defense, we score 16 points (300), that is a more embarrassing loss to me than a loss to the ACC champion who that year just happened to be named WF. UF won two NC's in a three year span and competed for four in a five year span, embarrassing losses to a NC team, I disagree.
Does the NCSt game mean this "season" was an embarrassment, hardly. For more than half of the programs in D1 a 7-6 record would be considered a success, if we consider it is a failure it is only because it is measured against the standard BB set for the program. As LA mentioned we are the only team without a losing season in almost 40 years. In 2008 we were 8-4, JF was 9-4 in 2011, was his second season an embarrassment??
You said, "Bobby's staff did not recruit very well", the roster that JF inherited had 15 players that were drafted or are currently playing on NFL rosters, an additional 4 players that will be drafted this year. Show me five other teams that had that kind of talent on it's roster over the last five years. I never said it had enough talent to win a NC, I did say that teams have won National Championships in the last five years with less talent than JF inherited.
"That is your issue and expectations of FSU football. NOT MINE!". How were those expectations set?? Who set those expectations??
Let's focus on JF and leave BB out of the conversation, if anyone wants to try to define a 44 year, 377 (411) win career by four years shame on them.
As I mentioned I think JF deserves a no raise extension, the message that was intended to be delivered has been delivered, very loud and very clear.
This post was edited on 3/3 12:44 PM by Miami Seminole
I get it. There is nothing that can convince you BB's last several years were several years too long for his tenure. You have your opinion and I have mine. The holes were glaring and JF set out to fix it. Evidently there were several admins who either felt the same as me or were forced to feel the same because a change was finally FORCED unto BB. The program was a shell of its former self and it needed to be brought into the 21st century(you have at least admitted this before). Was it as bad as 1975? Nope, no one is saying that. JF and FSU were still well behind the top programs from each conference, though, and had to play some serious catch-up.
I will give you one example again, even though you loved torpedoing the 33-0 trouncing at home against WF. Forget about nail biters against Troy at home and UF taking a knee against us, etc. There are too many games to mention so if you think the only game was WF then so be it. Now, here is the example. The past five drafts (2008-2012) FSU has sent 14. The three seasons (2005-2007) before that FSU sent a total of 22 players. That is 2.8 players per year vs. 7.2 players per year. Not only did BB have more and get less results....He left less for his successor. The top players were not coming to FSU and the talent disparity between UF, SEC schools and FSU was glaring. The trend and stats are there to see.
The talent level to compete at Florida State was low....for Florida State to be Florida State. Was it at the level of Wake Forest or most other schools for that matter? No. Not even close despite them running circles around us for several years including the trouncing at home we have discussed. Was it too low for an old style coaching staff? Most definitely. The Percy Harvin's of the world decided to take their abilities elsewhere.
The current situation is different and Fisher is making progress. He seems to have an abrasive personality that alienates some admins/boosters. That is not going to help him especially following someone who was as easy going and friendly as any head coach could be. Fisher is not close to being a BB or Saban on the field. He has brought the program into the 21st century and FSU has filled just about every order he has asked for, but losing to the NCSU's of the college football world needs to stop. The OL and QB positions need to perform in college...not in the NFL combines. He has built a coaching staff poised to make great strides both on the field and in the recruiting arena. He has two years left to prove this, IMO. 2013 is a slight rebuilding year with a new QB and developing OL. 2014 is the year it all hangs out....for better or worse. The last thing I want to see is for the program to stagnate then slide backwards for several years. That was too painful and unnecessary already once...no reason to see it happen again. I trust the admins/boosters will see this and move accordingly. I hope Fisher is successful, though, so no change is needed and FSU is where it should be...consistently among the elite of college football. It is time for FSU to get back in the front of the line. Kansas State, Georgia, Oregon, etc look better in the rear view mirror.
3/3 6:37 PM | IP: Logged
Very good post, kl. I agree 100%
3/3 7:03 PM | IP: Logged
Stop it.
3/3 7:33 PM | IP: Logged
Kelly the points I addressed were the following, you have attributed opinions and statements to me that I never said and are untrue, please use the quote button if you would like to quote me otherwise please don't make up things and attribute them to me. I make it a point to quote you exactly please do the same.
1. You said, "Bobby's last five years were an embarrassment. ", 7-6 8-4 are hardly an embarrassment when you consider that FSU is the only program to not have a losing season in almost 40 years and those last five seasons are part of that streak. At no time have I ever said that a change was not needed. Embarrassing games happened during the last five years of BB's career, and we have had our share of embarrassments during the last three years under JF. I would not call a winning season an embarrassment whether JF or BB is the HC, underachieving might be a better description.
2. You said, "Bobby's staff did not recruit very well", then you turn around and point out that before we hired JF and his OL coach we sent more players to the NFL than we have since JF came to FSU as OC / HC. JF was paid to do a job not sit on his thumbs for three years so are we including JF as a part of "Bobby's staff"??
3. "Not only did BB have more and get less results....He left less for his successor", the roster JF inherited included 15 players drafted by the NFL or playing in the NFL, 7 more players that will be drafted this year, that means 22 out of the 80 players (25%+) are NFL caliber, how can you justify the statement above. What Saban inherited was "less", what Gary Kelly inherited was "less", what Chip Kelly inherited was "less", what JF inherited was a roster with 25% of the players NFL caliber.
4. The elephant in the room is that whether it is BB or JF, FSU has brought in top ten recruiting classes, sent more players to the NFL than other programs that have won NCs and competed for them. In fact AL and FSU are the only two programs to sign top ten recruiting classes each of the last five years. Both coaches (BB and JF) underachieved, losses to WF or NCSt are embarrassing "losses" but do not translate into embarrassing "seasons", disappointing - yes, underachieving - yes, embarrassing - no.
I still believe that JF will get his extension despite the message that has been sent and the whole sports world is now aware JF has a leash and the leash has been tightened.
I hope he succeeds for FSU, I think he is good for FSU
Thanks and BTW I agree with most of the last paragraph of your last post
This post was edited on 3/3 8:44 PM by Miami Seminole
3/3 7:42 PM | IP: Logged
Miami...I think you missed the point with #2. That was not an endorsement of BB's recruiting in any shape or form during his last few years. Fyi, when he was sending guys to the NFL in bunches during the mid '00's they were recruited back in the early 00's. Those were also the teams that had the poor records. The ones that you seem to think were JF's recruits were recruited back when BB was the head coach. You do not become a head coach, recruit players, and then see them off to the NFL within three years. In fact, his guys just became eligible for the NFL this year. The waning of player quality was pointed out to show BB and his staff struggled with recruiting, especially after the underachieving with so many future NFL'ers, and left much less than you are trying to say otherwise. Starting with this season you will see the difference between what he inherited and what he recruited.
#1, is subjective. I was embarrassed because the program was getting worse and worse. Not better. I clearly saw it since the 2004 season and it was the most frustrating five years of my FSU experience. The NCSU game was not a good game at all. The WF game was bad as well. The difference was the program was descending and the WF game in 2006 simply opened the eyes of the rest of the college football world that things were not getting better in Tallahassee. The NCSU loss happened during the ascension of the program. Fisher has been taking three steps forward for every step back. Again, he has two years to get it to the elite level again. He needs the extension for FSU's sake more than anything. If he gets more $$$'s then so be it. I do not have a dog in that fight.
Glad you agree with the last paragraph of my earlier post.
3/3 8:49 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by kellylexy: Miami...I think you missed the point with #2. That was not an endorsement of BB's recruiting in any shape or form during his last few years. Fyi, when he was sending guys to the NFL in bunches during the mid '00's they were recruited back in the early 00's. Those were also the teams that had the poor records. The ones that you seem to think were JF's recruits were recruited back when BB was the head coach. You do not become a head coach, recruit players, and then see them off to the NFL within three years. In fact, his guys just became eligible for the NFL this year. The waning of player quality was pointed out to show BB and his staff struggled with recruiting, especially after the underachieving with so many future NFL'ers, and left much less than you are trying to say otherwise. Starting with this season you will see the difference between what he inherited and what he recruited.
My point is, as Kai pointed out in another thread, we sent 12 players to the NFL combine this year, 7 of the 12 were "inherited" by JF when he became HC.
8 additional players in the NFL or drafted by the NFL played for JF since he became HC.
In the first three years JF has been HC he has had 20 players of NFL quality on his roster that were recruited by BB.
My point was that anyway you look at it, JF inherited much more than the "empty cupboard" many people here claim, he had an extremely talented base to build on.
If JF continues to send an average of 7 players a year to the NFL we have no excuses because of a lack of talent.
3/3 9:21 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Miami Seminole:
Originally posted by kellylexy: Miami...I think you missed the point with #2. That was not an endorsement of BB's recruiting in any shape or form during his last few years. Fyi, when he was sending guys to the NFL in bunches during the mid '00's they were recruited back in the early 00's. Those were also the teams that had the poor records. The ones that you seem to think were JF's recruits were recruited back when BB was the head coach. You do not become a head coach, recruit players, and then see them off to the NFL within three years. In fact, his guys just became eligible for the NFL this year. The waning of player quality was pointed out to show BB and his staff struggled with recruiting, especially after the underachieving with so many future NFL'ers, and left much less than you are trying to say otherwise. Starting with this season you will see the difference between what he inherited and what he recruited.
My point is, as Kai pointed out in another thread, we sent 12 players to the NFL combine this year, 7 of the 12 were "inherited" by JF when he became HC.
8 additional players in the NFL or drafted by the NFL played for JF since he became HC.
In the first three years JF has been HC he has had 20 players of NFL quality on his roster that were recruited by BB.
My point was that anyway you look at it, JF inherited much more than the "empty cupboard" many people here claim, he had an extremely talented base to build on.
If JF continues to send an average of 7 players a year to the NFL we have no excuses because of a lack of talent.
The cupboard was not empty. I would not say there were cans of caviar in there, though. Maybe some pork and beans and cans of tuna though. lol. How about some levity?
3/3 10:07 PM | IP: Logged
Kelly I never accused you of being one of those that promote the empty cupboard theory, I was kind of surprised it appeared you had taken that side of the argument, as I said a very solid base to work with
20 NFL caliber players is enough of a foundation for any coach to build on and reach the point we are at today, going forward I expect more of the same, 10-12 wins a year is the minimum I expect, IMHO
3/3 10:37 PM | IP: Logged
Those seven guys this year were redshirt freshman or sophomores when Jimbo took over. Those werent seasoned players at that point.
In 2009 we started Korey Mangum, Ochuko Jenije, Craig Yarborough, Kendrick Stewart and Bud Thacker on defense. We had one of the worst defenses in all of college football. That is what Jimbo inherited. The only two offensive players he inherited who go drafted prior to this year were Christian Ponder and Rodnet Hudson. Hudson only came because of Trickett. Ponder was developed by Jimbo but no one thought he was an all conference player let alone a first round pick when he got here.
We had huge talent and depth issues across the board when he came in. There is no way you could look at the roster now as opposed to 2009 and not see the difference.
I believe the cupboard was pretty bare when he took over and especially when he first got here in 2007. It really scares me to think what would have happened if we would have hired Hatcher in 2007. He wasnt the recruiter Jimbo is and I wonder if our consecutive winning season streak happens if not.
3/4 12:25 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Nolebra Kai:
Those seven guys this year were redshirt freshman or sophomores when Jimbo took over. Those werent seasoned players at that point.
In 2009 we started Korey Mangum, Ochuko Jenije, Craig Yarborough, Kendrick Stewart and Bud Thacker on defense. We had one of the worst defenses in all of college football. That is what Jimbo inherited. The only two offensive players he inherited who go drafted prior to this year were Christian Ponder and Rodnet Hudson. Hudson only came because of Trickett. Ponder was developed by Jimbo but no one thought he was an all conference player let alone a first round pick when he got here.
We had huge talent and depth issues across the board when he came in. There is no way you could look at the roster now as opposed to 2009 and not see the difference.
I believe the cupboard was pretty bare when he took over and especially when he first got here in 2007. It really scares me to think what would have happened if we would have hired Hatcher in 2007. He wasnt the recruiter Jimbo is and I wonder if our consecutive winning season streak happens if not.
Kai now you want to argue what class they were, and what position they played, spin it any way you want,
If you canname five college programs in the last five years that have 22 players on an NFL roster or were drafted, and I will send $100 to the charity of your choice, if you can't find five you send $100 to Make-A-Wish in my name
Talk the talk now walk the walk
BTW any shortcomings of talent on the offensive side of the ball belong to JIMBO FISHER and no one else, you cannot claim he did not have offensive talent because he picked them, recruited them and coached them, and by the time he took over as HC his first class would have been seniors, and he inherited a first round NFL pick at QB to start with
This post was edited on 3/4 12:52 PM by Miami Seminole
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