It's being reported in the new today that Governor Scott has come put strong in suggesting that Florida universities focus less on producing liberal arts degrees and more on encouraging students to major in STEM disciplines. I can't imagine faculty leaders at FSU are happy with this, but sooner or later they will need to wake up to the reality that with a strategy to expand STEM FSU is going to be sitting on the sidelines for additional state funding.
The Gainesville Sun reports that Scott and the legislature is likely to cut funding for liberal arts programs and use that to fund expansion in STEM programs. This may be a good opportunity for FSU, given that we are so weak in STEM and have more opportunities for expansion in this area than other universities in the state do.
"sooner or later they will need to wake up to the reality that with a strategy to expand STEM FSU is going to be sitting on the sidelines for additional state funding."
FSU just seems to simply IGNORE the political reality. Why? I don't know. How FSU expects to survive with this strategy? I don't know either.
But it has been like this for a while. The money is ONLY in STEM. Whether it is state or federal. It is also where job growth is. But FSU is living in a different world and has not noticed.
Posted on 10/11 9:00 PM | IP: Logged
If Barron does not see this now, he is tone deaf. The latest budget cuts are pointing to additional cuts for higher ed in Florida next Spring, and given the economy and national trends the focus on STEM in this state and in the U.S. more generally is not going to change in the next decade. FSU needs a plan to expand in this area, and could offer to be a partner with the state in repositioning the university to be a leader. We also need to redirect some of our own resources in this direction. To offer nothing other than what the legislature has served up in the way of expansion in applied science, and to have only 10-20% of the faculty hired be in STEM fields in recent, is not the kind of university management strategy that is going to engender the confidence of leaders in Florida or in Washington, and certainly among AAU leaders. We've deferred making any decisions for several years now, but Governor Scott's recent remarks suggest that continuing to defer investing in expanding applied science and STEM at FSU could place the well being of the entire university at risk.
Posted on 10/12 9:44 AM | IP: Logged
Another story on this, from the national Higher Ed press.
From Higher Ed, "The emergence of anthropology as a target was something of a surprise to Florida academics. Last year, State Senator Don Gaetz, who has since been elected as president of the Senate for 2012, complained about other degrees in the social sciences. "When the No. 1 degree granted is psychology and the No. 2 degree is political science, maybe before we ask $100 million more of taxpayers we should re-deploy what we have," Gaetz said. "That way we make sure we're not sending graduates out with degrees that don't mean much."
I don't disagree with the general intent, but am I the only one who finds it ironic that Don Gaetz (as well as his two children) ALL hold degrees in social science and liberal arts. In fact, Gaetz went back for a master's in public admin from Troy State. His son, Florida Representative Matt Gaetz, received a political science degree from FSU.
Makes you wonder what they really think of their degrees and qualifications.
Posted on 10/12 1:22 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by tallahasseejoe: From Higher Ed, "The emergence of anthropology as a target was something of a surprise to Florida academics. Last year, State Senator Don Gaetz, who has since been elected as president of the Senate for 2012, complained about other degrees in the social sciences. "When the No. 1 degree granted is psychology and the No. 2 degree is political science, maybe before we ask $100 million more of taxpayers we should re-deploy what we have," Gaetz said. "That way we make sure we're not sending graduates out with degrees that don't mean much."
I don't disagree with the general intent, but am I the only one who finds it ironic that Don Gaetz (as well as his two children) ALL hold degrees in social science and liberal arts. In fact, Gaetz went back for a master's in public admin from Troy State. His son, Florida Representative Matt Gaetz, received a political science degree from FSU.
Makes you wonder what they really think of their degrees and qualifications.
Great point. Funny to see politicians railing on poly sci degrees.
Clearly, there is a place for liberal arts in our society. Unfortunately, paul and Dynasty are correct in stating that FSU is WAY over-invested in liberal arts vs. STEM (and other applied degrees, such as business, law, and education). IMO, the problem lies in the fact that social science classes/majors are far easier to get a degree in than STEM disciplines...and they tend to be more interesting classes (most would rather hear a lecture on Plato than on the electron orbitals of carbon). The incentive system is screwed up at FSU as it is in most places for both students and faculty. Only the BEST political science minds should be passing their political science undergrad classes...they should actually be TOUGHER than the STEM classes, as only the best and brightest poly sci grads will really use their degrees effectively. And the social science departments shouldn't be rewarded for numbers of butts in seats, but rather how well they are educating and placing their graduates.
Really hope Barron isn't asleep at the wheel here.
Posted on 10/12 3:30 PM | IP: Logged
This whole premise is just stupid...Scott wants to build up STEM, so he's going tear down liberal arts? And this makes schools like FSU better?
I love this state but we elect way too many morons to office.
If you want to graduate more in STEM, don't cut funding to the liberal arts...ADD FUNDING TO HIGH SCHOOL PROGRAMS THAT HELP STUDENTS IN MATH AND SCIENCE. No one is stopping students from majoring in STEM disciplines in college...too many kids are coming out of HS unprepared for that curriculum. Increase funding for HS focus on those areas, and more students will major in them.
Is it me?
I'm a registered Republican, and Rick Scott is an idiot.
Posted on 10/15 3:07 AM | IP: Logged
I can't make an informed opinion. Anyone have FSU's stats for funding of liberal arts degrees vs. STEM-oriented degrees? We are certainly weak in the STEM fields, but I'd like to see the hard facts as to why, as well as comparisons for other schools. Can someone help a guy out?
Posted on 10/15 3:42 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by MrOsceola: This whole premise is just stupid...Scott wants to build up STEM, so he's going tear down liberal arts? And this makes schools like FSU better?
I love this state but we elect way too many morons to office.
If you want to graduate more in STEM, don't cut funding to the liberal arts...ADD FUNDING TO HIGH SCHOOL PROGRAMS THAT HELP STUDENTS IN MATH AND SCIENCE. No one is stopping students from majoring in STEM disciplines in college...too many kids are coming out of HS unprepared for that curriculum. Increase funding for HS focus on those areas, and more students will major in them.
Is it me?
I'm a registered Republican, and Rick Scott is an idiot.
Absolutely agreed.
Posted on 10/15 10:10 AM | IP: Logged
Hard facts -
Less than 25% of FSU's faculty is in STEM areas (and this is a lot less than every AAU university except Indiana). This year, only a small number of new hires at FSU are in STEM.
According to FSU's fact book (click on degrees awarded) FSU's degree production in STEM fields appears to be around 15-20% or less of total degrees awarded (depending on the extent to which nursing and psych are included), at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. Our engineering numbers are especially weak in comparison to every decent research public university with an engineering program in the U.S.
The percentage of degrees in STEM fields in Florida is 30% according to the NSF, and this is below the national average.
As people here may know, the BOG has requested more than 50% of new funding from the legislature to grow STEM areas.
The facts are that FSU is weak in STEM production, measured by undergraduate and graduate degrees, and has underinvested in STEM for decades. It has build considerable STEM infrastructure, including new chemistry, biology, medical, psychology, and engineering research facilities, but needs to invest more of its resources into hiring STEM faculty if it is to produce STEM degrees at or near the state or national average. Because it is relatively weak, it also faces considerable opportunities to expand in this area, and the biggest opportunity for expansion is probably in engineering.
Posted on 10/15 12:47 PM | IP: Logged
"According to FSU's fact book (click on degrees awarded) FSU's degree production in STEM fields appears to be around 15-20% or less of total degrees awarded (depending on the extent to which nursing and psych are included), at both the undergraduate and graduate levels."
The lack of students entering STEM disciplines in general is a problem; however, the problem is almost entirely a demand side issue (i.e., a lack of students demanding these type courses). Resources would be expanded if the demand was expanding. To be honest, the nation's scientific community has completely dropped the ball in its effort to promote their discipline. Just as problematic is the low value we place on education in general, and STEM education in particular, in the U.S. versus those in countries with rapidly rising economies.
This post was edited on 10/15 2:07 PM by tallahasseejoe
Posted on 10/15 1:46 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by tallahasseejoe: "According to FSU's fact book (click on degrees awarded) FSU's degree production in STEM fields appears to be around 15-20% or less of total degrees awarded (depending on the extent to which nursing and psych are included), at both the undergraduate and graduate levels."
The lack of students entering STEM disciplines in general is a problem; however, the problem is almost entirely a demand side issue (i.e., a lack of students demanding these type courses). Resources would be expanded if the demand was expanding. To be honest, the nation's scientific community has completely dropped the ball in its effort to promote their discipline. Just as problematic is the low value we place on education in general, and STEM education in particular, in the U.S. versus those in countries with rapidly rising economies.
This post was edited on 10/15 2:07 PM by tallahasseejoe
You have this one right. Killing funding for some majors won't help STEM. It'll just hurt our higher ed system as a whole. As I said above, this has to start to at the middle school/high school level. Get students into math and science at younger ages, and they'll come in to college wanting to major in STEM in higher numbers.
Seriously, let's say we cut funding 30-40% for non-STEM departments at state schools starting immediately and immediately funneled that money to STEM departments. Someone tell me how this will translate in to more students wanting to major in STEM disciplines.
Posted on 10/15 11:36 PM | IP: Logged
My understanding is that Scott is proposing to tie state funding to student scholarships (Bright Futures) to the major. As I see it, this is an incentive to influence demand, not a cut to existing funding for non-STEM programs. If you are concerned that the demand is not there, his proposal might work to increase it.
I agree that we need better science in k-12 as well, but we also have a problem with keeping science majors in this state. This is a big area where Florida exports top students.
Posted on 10/16 3:56 PM | IP: Logged
Forgive my ignorance, but are there that many jobs in all of the STEM areas? For example, who's hiring math majors aside from maybe insurance companies and high schools? And who's hiring physics, biology and chemistry majors that don't go on to med school? Just curious.
Posted on 10/18 9:59 AM | IP: Logged
A couple of points.
There is considerable evidence that talented HS students who want to do serious science leave the state because the opportunities here may not be as great at say Georgia Tech, NCSU, Clemson, etc. Brain drain in science tops the motivations of HS students who choose to leave the state for college so if the goalo is to keep the best and brightest in science here we need to offer stronger science programs in Florida.
There is also a problem in finding good undergraduates from Florida to populate graduate programs. We bring in a lot of our talent from out of state, including a numer of Florida HS students who went out of state for undergraduate.
It is pretty clear to me that science in the state lags, both at the HS and college levels (in terms of both quality and size of programs), and we need to invest in both to build the pipeline. It's all about pipeline, and if you are not keeping students interested in science in the state after HS and producing undergraduates in science, you have to bring in graduate students from out of state if you want to prouduce scientists, engineers and doctors.
As I see it, the problem is Florida universities are not producing enough scientists, but also are not producing the quality of opportunities in science that some other state universities throughout the South are. We need to invest in increasing both quality (in the form of good economic opportunities) and quantity (in terms of the number of graduates in science).
Posted on 10/18 10:10 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by seminal: Forgive my ignorance, but are there that many jobs in all of the STEM areas? For example, who's hiring math majors aside from maybe insurance companies and high schools? And who's hiring physics, biology and chemistry majors that don't go on to med school? Just curious.
Middle and high schools need STEM background folks to teach classes. I was a STEM major, and although I only worked in my "discipline" for about 4 years after school before switching to business, it has continued to open doors for me in consulting and academia. By majoring in a STEM discipline, employers from most industries recognize that you can do challenging work that is very analytical. Although students that major in softer majors might be just as intelligent, employers attribute very different characteristics to a physics major than they do an art history major.
To paul's point, the state of Florida needs more opportunity for STEM majors. IMO, one of the reasons there aren't too many opportunities is because the SUS (and K-12) of Florida has been so poor at developing the human capital to sustain such businesses, they haven't moved to or developed in this state.
If you build it (STEM human capital), they will come.
Posted on 10/18 11:11 AM | IP: Logged
Brickhouse: "Although students that major in softer majors might be just as intelligent, employers attribute very different characteristics to a physics major than they do an art history major."
Perhaps that's true, but I suspect not in the way you believe. While I currently lack a research study to corroborate what life's shown me, most in supervisory roles that I've met over the years graduated with "softer major" degrees. Most of the science graduates I've met haven't exactly been good with people nor what I would call leadership material.
Posted on 10/19 3:46 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by jrfsu: Brickhouse: "Although students that major in softer majors might be just as intelligent, employers attribute very different characteristics to a physics major than they do an art history major."
Perhaps that's true, but I suspect not in the way you believe. While I currently lack a research study to corroborate what life's shown me, most in supervisory roles that I've met over the years graduated with "softer major" degrees. Most of the science graduates I've met haven't exactly been good with people nor what I would call leadership material.
As someone who went from a hard science to a "soft" science, I wholeheartedly agree with your statement about leadership and promotion.
The problem is that employers are looking a lot more for front line employees with hard skills than with soft skills. Employers don't want new hires to manage (soft skill) as much as do (hard skill). The higher up you go, the more important the soft skills are.
Unfortunately for soft skill people, there are a lot fewer management positions than front line positions.
Posted on 10/19 4:08 PM | IP: Logged
Brogan: Anthropology is a STEM degree
State University System Chancellor Frank Brogan had a quick anthropology lesson for Gov. Rick Scott this morning.
Scott has poked at the program while attempting to raise the profile of so-called STEM subjects: science, technology, engineering and math.
But Rep. Alan Williams, D-Tallahassee, asked Brogan whether or not anthropology is a STEM subject.
"It is," Brogan said.
Williams also asked about the message Scott has sent by posting state salaries of university system. Brogan said he worked in "arguably one of the most competitive industries known to man: higher education."
"Beyond money as we all know, we need to remember that the marketing - and I mean that in a good way - of our State University System right now is critical," Brogan said. "We want the best and brightest professors. We want the best and brightest students. But at the end of the day, we all recognize change needs to be made.
"But how that change translates to what the rest of the world hears can be a difficulty if you're not careful," he said. "So when it comes to what our people are teaching, how they teach, etc., great. We need to have those conversations. But we need to be careful that the message sent is that we are not a faculty friendly state. That just makes our job even more difficult in the 21st century."
You're not going to get many students out of high school who aren't already focused on math or science to take a STEM major. If they're good at it and interested in it, they'll do it; otherwise, not.
It would be much better to build from the ground up, starting with elementary school. Of course our FCAT-based K-12 system didn't test science, so guess what? It wasn't emphasized and in fact time for science instruction was squeezed out with test prep.
This whole thing is goofy.
Check out the attached link for the official State of Florida job growth projections through 2019. You won't find that many STEM-related jobs, and the ones that do generally have only a few hundred openings statewide each year.
I can't believe people who work in higher see this as anything other than as an anti-intellectual attack on universities.
I received a history degree from FSU and I had a minor in political science, but I realize we MUST focus on STEM. It's needed and it is where the future is.
Originally posted by seminal: Forgive my ignorance, but are there that many jobs in all of the STEM areas? For example, who's hiring math majors aside from maybe insurance companies and high schools? And who's hiring physics, biology and chemistry majors that don't go on to med school? Just curious.
This is a great question and a interest of mine. For years now all I've heard was that STEM professions are where all the jobs are. I don't know if this is just hyperbole from folks wanting more science majors or not but the truth of the matter is STEM degrees are just like business and communication majors-- there are good ones in terms of employment and bad ones.
Check out the link below: "Science Can’t Compete for the Ablest Grads..."
*********** Here is a snippet: "the brightest American students aren’t going into science and engineering careers nearly as often as they used to.
But the reason is not, as some people say, that young Americans lack the smarts or the skills to succeed in those fields. Instead, it appears that longstanding U.S. policies have destroyed the incentives that used to attract many of the nation’s best young minds into science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (the so-called STEM fields). " ***************
In a nutshell it's the "on-shoring" that is killing salaries and job prospects for kids that major in Biology or Chemistry. I have a friend that majored in Biology and stayed in school to get a Masters in said field and he makes $16/hour w/out much benefits doing a bench job. The reason? Because many kids from India, Japan, etc. come here to go to school and they take the jobs at a low wage causing a decrease that effects the entire industry.
In order to make any money is the field one would need a doctorate but even then the field is oversaturated. And frankly, who wants to get a Ph.D in biology or chemistry without the possibility of having a job afterwards. So US students have wised up and are not going into some STEM fields because the need just isn't there. It's the reason if you ever walk in the graduate wing of a US university it's full of kids from Asia. Not because US students are lazy (as I previously thought).
Computer science is slightly different because the need for IT workers is so great because most companies have to have an IT department. An insurance company or bank is not going to have a Chemistry dept. so the need for these grads are much lower.
Math is hot because they get scooped up by IT companies as well. Math and CS are linked because of the analyticl thought required. Thus, most maths make decent programmers. Maths also make good actuaries so the need is there.
So the STEM myth is alive and well. If you have kids entering college be sure they know that if the goal is to get a job after college there are good STEM majors and not so good. Just like business and the communications majors.
Maybe...maybe not. There is a STEM myth that is out there. Now it may change as years go on but as of right now many STEM fields produce very few jobs. See my post above.
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