UF seems to be positioning itself to make another major push for differentiating universities this Spring. I think that FSU is in agreement that we need more independence and freedom from the state too. However, from the last trustees meeting it appears that the thrust of what we plan on asking the legislature for next Spring is more money to make up for past losses, which seems to be the la la land strategy one of the UF trustees is criticizing in this story. It will be interesting to see what unfolds, and whether UF and FSU will simply take different paths. Will UF be allowed to focus on more independence, higher tuition and a national/out-of state mission? Will FSU take a similar approach, or will it continue to link its future success to more state funding?
I see Machen's effort as another "flagship" push...which will fail the same way all the other UF uber alles attempts fell flat. Ain't going to happen without Florida State.
It was a similar fiscal crisis in 1905 that led to the Buckman Act consolidating universities. FSU and UF were created from smaller schools, each with a desire to expand at state expense.
Maybe it is time to use similar fiscal discipline, but this time without the racial and sexual bias?
This post was edited on 12/4 1:49 PM by Mac_Nole
Posted on 12/4 1:48 PM | IP: Logged
So why doesnt FSU get out of la la land and join UF? Do we really think that increased state funding is going to happen?
Posted on 12/4 7:35 PM | IP: Logged
I like the push for outside students but we really need to focus on the current student and alumni's experience with FSU. I proudly give through multiple avenues but I'm hands down the minority of my friends. A lot of my friends love FSU but feel their tuition was enough and give nothing back to FSU. I think we need to bait our current students harder in having a passion and love for the school which results in year-over-year contributions to their colleges and the Booster program. We are missing out on such a huge opportunity with our existing and future alumni.
Posted on 12/5 12:36 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by pauldirac: So why doesnt FSU get out of la la land and join UF? Do we really think that increased state funding is going to happen?
This may be exactly what is required. Assuming what Machen proposes is the best way to do it. Of course, Machen is suggesting only UF is worthy at this point.
Posted on 12/5 5:45 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Mac_Nole:
Originally posted by pauldirac: So why doesnt FSU get out of la la land and join UF? Do we really think that increased state funding is going to happen?
This may be exactly what is required. Assuming what Machen proposes is the best way to do it. Of course, Machen is suggesting only UF is worthy at this point.
Exactly, but unfortunately I don't think the two schools have the votes to pass something like this without dragging USF and probably UCF along. That would produce a cascading effect and the next thing you knoow FAMU would be claiming a spot. Personally, I think it's a non-starter but perhaps something has been learned from Wisconsin's effort last year (where the prez eventually lost her job over the issue).
This post was edited on 12/5 6:42 PM by tallahasseejoe
Posted on 12/5 6:39 PM | IP: Logged
USF and UCF were built for access. Let them do that. I've heard, for example, that UCF Med is getting in the way of FSU Med in Orlando. So close UCF Med and start more medical residencies as should have been done all along. FSU Med is arguably building the best MDs in the state. One doesn't screw with success.
There is not enough money to raise all boats, regardless of how fervently they want to raise them.
Posted on 12/5 8:26 PM | IP: Logged
FAMU can already take more out of state students due to their HBCU status. If my memory serves me correctly they are pushing close to 20 percent for out of state enrollment. Not allowing UF, nor any other school for that matter to do the same would be hypocritical on the state's part.
Posted on 12/5 9:53 PM | IP: Logged
I say....just move UF out of state. They can then have all those students.
Posted on 12/7 12:50 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Mac_Nole: USF and UCF were built for access. Let them do that. I've heard, for example, that UCF Med is getting in the way of FSU Med in Orlando. So close UCF Med and start more medical residencies as should have been done all along. FSU Med is arguably building the best MDs in the state. One doesn't screw with success.
There is not enough money to raise all boats, regardless of how fervently they want to raise them.
FSU Med's campus in Orlando is to train primary care doctors, nothing more, nothing less. Its size and scope pale in comparison to UCF. It's laughable to suggest that UCF is "in the way" of FSU in Orlando, when FSU's presence is minimal and only for upper-level med students in limited fields. The entire Orlando community is behind the UCF College of Medicine and the medical city at Lake Nona. Given the choice between losing FSU's small presence or UCF's CoM, every Orlando politician including any Nole alums will choose to ditch FSU.
I think a proper retort to your ridiculous statement would be to suggest that the state shutter FSU Med's campuses across the state. It has failed thus far to show any significant results at producing primary care doctors for underserved communities while getting a much larger per student appropriation from the state than the other state medical schools - the distributed campus model is significantly more expensive than the other medical schools.
I doubt you have any quantitative data to support your suggestion that FSU is "building the best MDs in the state." The pass rates on the licensing exams are pretty much the same at all the state schools. So I'd love to hear some quantitative data that supports your statement, especially when FSU is receiving nearly double the per student support of the other schools.
Posted on 12/27 11:57 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by CitrusUCF:
Originally posted by Mac_Nole: USF and UCF were built for access. Let them do that. I've heard, for example, that UCF Med is getting in the way of FSU Med in Orlando. So close UCF Med and start more medical residencies as should have been done all along. FSU Med is arguably building the best MDs in the state. One doesn't screw with success.
There is not enough money to raise all boats, regardless of how fervently they want to raise them.
FSU Med's campus in Orlando is to train primary care doctors, nothing more, nothing less. Its size and scope pale in comparison to UCF. It's laughable to suggest that UCF is "in the way" of FSU in Orlando, when FSU's presence is minimal and only for upper-level med students in limited fields. The entire Orlando community is behind the UCF College of Medicine and the medical city at Lake Nona. Given the choice between losing FSU's small presence or UCF's CoM, every Orlando politician including any Nole alums will choose to ditch FSU.
I think a proper retort to your ridiculous statement would be to suggest that the state shutter FSU Med's campuses across the state. It has failed thus far to show any significant results at producing primary care doctors for underserved communities while getting a much larger per student appropriation from the state than the other state medical schools - the distributed campus model is significantly more expensive than the other medical schools.
I doubt you have any quantitative data to support your suggestion that FSU is "building the best MDs in the state." The pass rates on the licensing exams are pretty much the same at all the state schools. So I'd love to hear some quantitative data that supports your statement, especially when FSU is receiving nearly double the per student support of the other schools.
This one article in the Sarasota Herald Trombone (no fan of FSU to be sure) has more than enough quantitative data to support my position especially vis a vis UCF Med:
I'll even do better than this, though, with another fact which while not quantitative speaks volumes about the quality of the education at FSU Med from perhaps the best, most objective, person to comment on the relative value of medical training programs - Darrell Kirch, president and CEO of the Association of American Medical Colleges: “I can’t say enough good things about what you’ve accomplished,” said Kirch, president and CEO of the Association of American Medical Colleges. “The problem is now we need to extend it to other medical schools and to the entire health-care system.”
It reportedly took UF Med decades to land a visit from such a high-ranking AAMC official while FSU Med not only garners the visit in fairly short order but also has the CEO wanting to reconstruct the entire U.S. medical education system around the FSU Med concept. UCF's apparent contribution to the state in the medical arena has been a transparent effort at self aggrandizing via political fiat. It's no wonder the Florida Legislature doesn't give UCF the money it wants.
Posted on 12/28 3:09 AM | IP: Logged
Another thought on this med school (in Orlando, at the moment) issue is that FIU Med and UCF Med were both created to address the shortage of primary care physicians in Florida, not just FSU Med. Indeed, I would posit safely that UF, USF and whatever financial contributions to U Miami Med from the State of Florida were intended mainly to benefit the citizens of Florida in a basic medical sense, not stimulate or reward the mission creep ambitions of university administrators and alumni.
Comments about the possible research work by UCF Med without taking care of the fundamentals (primary care) that led to the school's creation carries risk of offending the members of the Florida Legislature, which we must note did not vote to create UCF Med, quite unlike the previous med schools (UF, USF and FSU) which all were creatures of the legislative process. While the Florida Board of Governors can apparently authorize a university to have a med school it becomes apparent the BoG cannot fund it with state appropriations.
I would think in this unfair world that the offspring of the legislative sausage-making process would tend to be funded first and foremost then what is left is appropriated for the creatures of the BoG.
Perhaps FSU Med's public devotion to it's legislative call remains the reason for whatever funding benefits the Legislature opts to bestow. I do recall UF Med folks complaining about more state support at FSU Med than in Gainesville. I can only imagine the distributed impact of this political largesse at a place like UCF Med.
Posted on 12/28 7:06 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Mac_Nole:
Originally posted by CitrusUCF:
Originally posted by Mac_Nole: USF and UCF were built for access. Let them do that. I've heard, for example, that UCF Med is getting in the way of FSU Med in Orlando. So close UCF Med and start more medical residencies as should have been done all along. FSU Med is arguably building the best MDs in the state. One doesn't screw with success.
There is not enough money to raise all boats, regardless of how fervently they want to raise them.
FSU Med's campus in Orlando is to train primary care doctors, nothing more, nothing less. Its size and scope pale in comparison to UCF. It's laughable to suggest that UCF is "in the way" of FSU in Orlando, when FSU's presence is minimal and only for upper-level med students in limited fields. The entire Orlando community is behind the UCF College of Medicine and the medical city at Lake Nona. Given the choice between losing FSU's small presence or UCF's CoM, every Orlando politician including any Nole alums will choose to ditch FSU.
I think a proper retort to your ridiculous statement would be to suggest that the state shutter FSU Med's campuses across the state. It has failed thus far to show any significant results at producing primary care doctors for underserved communities while getting a much larger per student appropriation from the state than the other state medical schools - the distributed campus model is significantly more expensive than the other medical schools.
I doubt you have any quantitative data to support your suggestion that FSU is "building the best MDs in the state." The pass rates on the licensing exams are pretty much the same at all the state schools. So I'd love to hear some quantitative data that supports your statement, especially when FSU is receiving nearly double the per student support of the other schools.
This one article in the Sarasota Herald Trombone (no fan of FSU to be sure) has more than enough quantitative data to support my position especially vis a vis UCF Med:
I'll even do better than this, though, with another fact which while not quantitative speaks volumes about the quality of the education at FSU Med from perhaps the best, most objective, person to comment on the relative value of medical training programs - Darrell Kirch, president and CEO of the Association of American Medical Colleges: “I can’t say enough good things about what you’ve accomplished,” said Kirch, president and CEO of the Association of American Medical Colleges. “The problem is now we need to extend it to other medical schools and to the entire health-care system.”
It reportedly took UF Med decades to land a visit from such a high-ranking AAMC official while FSU Med not only garners the visit in fairly short order but also has the CEO wanting to reconstruct the entire U.S. medical education system around the FSU Med concept. UCF's apparent contribution to the state in the medical arena has been a transparent effort at self aggrandizing via political fiat. It's no wonder the Florida Legislature doesn't give UCF the money it wants.
1. The Sarasota article's only quantitative data is the USMLE pass rates. All of the state schools are right there with FSU.
2. As to its qualitative statements, I don't doubt that the system creates better primary care doctors. Primary care doctors aren't the only sort of doctors needed in the state however.
3. You reference the Legislature not giving UCF the money it wants. What money is that? I haven't the foggiest what you're referencing. I previously mentioned that FSU gets double the per student amount of the other medical schools - that includes UF and USF.
4. Additionally, the Sarasota article proclaims the distributed system a great success at creating primary care doctors. Are there any numbers to back this up? While the percentage of grads entering primary care at FSU is apparently higher because of the greater exposure, my understanding is that it's nowhere near the amount expected/predicted, because even with the great exposure to underserved areas, the graduates still expect to get paid and Florida's medicaid reimbursement rates are too low and serve as a major impediment in that area. Given the reality that we can't expect the state to significantly boost the medicaid rates, I'm left to wonder if paying double the amount per student for only slightly better results is worth the money to the state.
5. On the topic of the AAMC visit, color me shocked that their leadership showed up to inspect a unique school and that they'd like to spend more money on medical education without significant proven results.
This post was edited on 12/28 9:04 AM by CitrusUCF
Posted on 12/28 9:02 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Mac_Nole: Another thought on this med school (in Orlando, at the moment) issue is that FIU Med and UCF Med were both created to address the shortage of primary care physicians in Florida, not just FSU Med. Indeed, I would posit safely that UF, USF and whatever financial contributions to U Miami Med from the State of Florida were intended mainly to benefit the citizens of Florida in a basic medical sense, not stimulate or reward the mission creep ambitions of university administrators and alumni.
Comments about the possible research work by UCF Med without taking care of the fundamentals (primary care) that led to the school's creation carries risk of offending the members of the Florida Legislature, which we must note did not vote to create UCF Med, quite unlike the previous med schools (UF, USF and FSU) which all were creatures of the legislative process. While the Florida Board of Governors can apparently authorize a university to have a med school it becomes apparent the BoG cannot fund it with state appropriations.
I would think in this unfair world that the offspring of the legislative sausage-making process would tend to be funded first and foremost then what is left is appropriated for the creatures of the BoG.
Perhaps FSU Med's public devotion to it's legislative call remains the reason for whatever funding benefits the Legislature opts to bestow. I do recall UF Med folks complaining about more state support at FSU Med than in Gainesville. I can only imagine the distributed impact of this political largesse at a place like UCF Med.
Clearly you aren't very familiar with the state budget, the legislative process, the Board of Governors/university governance issues, or the history of these projects.
1. Let's first clear up the money issues. UF, USF, UCF, and FIU receive approximately the same per student appropriation. FAU's is hard to figure out because it's built into their base university budget and not separated out in the state budget. I don't have a copy on hand to see if there's any proviso related to FAU, but they're a special case since their appropriation is related to the amount they were receiving for their partnership with UM. FSU gets about double per student because of the cost of the distributed campuses. Additionally, the state funds Florida residents at Miami, Nova Southeastern, and LECOM, though the amount does not begin to approach the per student support at a state school.
2. While FIU's goal is to be a more or less typical medical school with outreach to the underserved community in and around Miami, UCF's medical school was sold as a research school. That doesn't per se compete with the goal of putting MD students (who aren't doing research) into primary care or other needed areas . The Lake Nona Medical City was a well known proposal throughout the creation of UCF COM and had the support of state leadership and the legislature in an attempt to gain more biotech into the state - which has been successful. Indeed, this has also helped UCF steer students toward primary care with the Nemours Hospital and the Veterans Administration both there at Lake Nona providing students with a lot of possibilities.
3. The Legislature did vote to create UCF COM. While the Board of Governors had to vote to authorize the MD program itself, the UCF COM was a legislative creation and required legislative approval to receive the capital outlay funding to construct the facilities, general revenue funding to fund the program, and budgetary tuition authority to collect tuition from students. To suggest that the legislature was inactive in this process is very much incorrect, and as indicated above, the legislature and state leadership understood that while UCF would train doctors and attempt to focus them into needed areas, that the goal very much was economic development for the state to begin transforming from tourism into a knowledge based economy.
One of the primary arguments UCF used to win the school was a report by an economic analysis firm that showed the economic development impact their proposal would have on Orlando and the state as a whole. That has already been justified with Burnham and MD Anderson setting up research wings at Lake Nona. It should be noted that what's happening at Lake Nona is progressing so well that UF has already built a research building to try to elbow in on it, and they're preparing an expansion of the facility.
Given Governor Scott's focus on jobs and the legislature's interest in economic development, I think it's hard to say that anyone in Tallahassee cares, at all, whether UCF is graduating primary care positions when it is transforming the Central Florida economy.
Posted on 12/28 9:25 AM | IP: Logged
I would love to see more out of state students, but remember, FSU doesn't bring in all the out of staters it is currently allowed to.
Read that again.
UF is smart to push this....FSU would be too, but FSU has been slow to make smart moves and has even been unable to push for the out of staters it is allowed to bring in.
FSU's 'leadership' can be boiled down to one simple thing. Beg the state for money.
Simple and as pathetic as that. This topic is one of the many that really shine a bad light on FSU's leadership and their ability to do anything beyond pass out degrees.
I was hoping for more with the new blood. Haven't seen anything yet.
Posted on 12/28 9:28 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by tallahasseejoe:
Originally posted by Mac_Nole:
Originally posted by pauldirac: So why doesnt FSU get out of la la land and join UF? Do we really think that increased state funding is going to happen?
This may be exactly what is required. Assuming what Machen proposes is the best way to do it. Of course, Machen is suggesting only UF is worthy at this point.
Exactly, but unfortunately I don't think the two schools have the votes to pass something like this without dragging USF and probably UCF along. That would produce a cascading effect and the next thing you knoow FAMU would be claiming a spot. Personally, I think it's a non-starter but perhaps something has been learned from Wisconsin's effort last year (where the prez eventually lost her job over the issue).
This post was edited on 12/5 6:42 PM by tallahasseejoe
Machen isn't going to get this sort of freedom unless he is willing to take a state-related type status like Penn State and Pitt have where the state appropriation is significantly smaller than it is currently. I'm not sold either way on whether such a status is desirable for FSU - you'd lose a significant number of students when tuition goes up to something nearing private school levels - but it might promote FSU's growth in the graduate school areas. However, I don't think UCF or USF would be the least bit interested in a state-related status, though I'm sure they'd both love to get out from under the BOG's regulations if that's all that UF seeks to accomplish.
There are a lot of practical questions that have to be answered about this proposal, and I think that impacts the reaction of the BOG, the legislature, and the other universities:
1. Exactly what freedoms does UF get There are many additional questions once you understand what they really want. 2. What level of state support would remain? Would the reductions to UF be redirected to the other universities? 3. What tuition would be charged at UF? Would Florida residents still receive a significant discount? 4. Would UF want its students to be eligible for the Florida Resident Access Grant (FRAG) that currently goes to ICUF schools?
For various political reasons, I don't see UF getting what Machen is talking about. I think it'd have to be state-related or nothing; there's no political incentive for them to get these freedoms without really offering the state anything, and it'd be politically necessary to take along FSU, UCF, and USF in this limited freedom concept. So he really needs to be willing to go for the fully monty of state-support or just not rock the boat at all. And if he does go all the way, does Barron jump on board too? I'd lean towards probably based on his comments and testimony before the Legislature, but that might actually poison it as I'm not sure the Legislature would let both universities go this way and significantly exacerbate the higher education access issues we have when UF and FSU reduce enrollment by 10k+ students each (and I think that's a conservative figure) as a result of the increase in tuition costs up to near private school levels. Barron would probably be better off to go ahead and let UF have the full state-support status if that's where this ends up, and see what happens. If UF succeeds and doesn't negatively impact the access issue, then FSU won't have a hard time getting a similar setup. If UF fails (as I think they will to a certain degree), then FSU will be all the better off for it.
This post was edited on 12/28 10:34 AM by CitrusUCF
Posted on 12/28 10:25 AM | IP: Logged
Citrus, I would urge you to review F.S. 1004.384 and compare that sparse entry to F.S. 1004.42 (FSU Med's authorizing statute) and F.S. 1004.41 (UF's authorizing statute). Clearly UCF and FIU meds are creations of the BoG. As to the political ramifications of a legislatively created entity compared to an "authorized" entity created by another body, clearly the Legislature has a preference, otherwise they'd have created the other med schools on their own.
The primary driver for the FIU, UCF and other med entities was the lack of primary care docs in Florida. The Lake Nona aspect of medical commerce may have been a secondary factor if this Staff Analysis of UCF's proposal to the Bog is to be believed, but no way a primary factor:
The primary arguments used in the proposal for more people to be prepared as medical doctors are: Annual demand in Florida will grow from 2,800 in 2003 to 4,200 in 2021. National demand is expected to grow from 41,000 in 2005 to 58,000 in 2021. Major medical associations are calling for an increase in graduates. Florida’s need is increasing faster than other states because of faster growth in population. Ratio of medical school graduates to total state population declined from 4.3 in 1985 to less than 2.8 in 2003. Florida imports more than 80% of its physicians from out of state, a source whose reliability may change.
These arguments are supported by labor market statistics compiled by the Florida Agency for Workforce Innovation (AWI), which project moderate growth (2.35 percent annual change overall) in the number of physicians needed, with an increase of 6,658 openings by 2012. AWI data also projects 1,290 average annual openings over the same period due to growth and separations. The existing public university medical schools awarded 227 degrees in 2004-05.
Nothing here about medical research.
Congrats on graduating from FSU Law! That's an outstanding accomplishment!
Does anybody know the percentage of Med grads that go into primary care form FSU, USF and UF?
Posted on 12/29 1:55 AM | IP: Logged
First, let's define "primary care" docs. According to the FSU Med website, primary care docs are:
internal medicine, family medicine, pediatrics or obstetrics-gynecology
The match varies from year to year, but FSU Med sometimes has as many as half of the MDs enter "primary care". To really know for sure we'd have to chart each match for each school over time.
A guess would be that the three state med schools mentioned would have an average of about half of the graduating MDs enter one of these specialties.
Yahoo! Sports
FSU Med's campus in Orlando is to train primary care doctors, nothing more, nothing less. Its size and scope pale in comparison to UCF. It's laughable to suggest that UCF is "in the way" of FSU in Orlando, when FSU's presence is minimal and only for upper-level med students in limited fields. The entire Orlando community is behind the UCF College of Medicine and the medical city at Lake Nona. Given the choice between losing FSU's small presence or UCF's CoM, every Orlando politician including any Nole alums will choose to ditch FSU.