I can't tell you how many times I've heard from UF alums that if they were to apply again, they would not have the grades or GPA to get into UF. It seems like UF has been raising their standards for years, while FSU has only had modest bumps. What is preventing FSU from becoming the university that becomes much more difficult to get into?
Like UF, FSU's admissions standards are at an all-time high. Also like UF, we need to maintain a minimum freshman cohort (about 6K for FSU) to generate the tuition dollars and to keep a healthy undergraduate student body.
I know we like to say that our efforts should be focused on graduate studies and research, and FSU has done a good job of improving in those areas in the last decade (see historical doctorates generated). But, the undergraduate population is also important for establishing an alumni body, generating tuition revenue, filling classrooms, fulfilling the state's higher education needs, creating school spirit, etc.
Posted on 1/6 9:40 AM | IP: Logged
"I can't tell you how many times I've heard from UF alums that if they were to apply again, they would not have the grades or GPA to get into UF."
Same story with me and FSU. I got accepted into FSU and UF. If I applied today to FSU, I would not be accepted again. MANY FSU fans can say the same
"It seems like UF has been raising their standards for years, while FSU has only had modest bumps. "
You are terribly misinformed. FSU has also been raising their standards for years.....MANY years and at a large increase
"What is preventing FSU from becoming the university that becomes much more difficult to get into?"
STOP listening to Gators who are trying to misinform you. Look at the facts, you will see FSU has very high admission standards
This post was edited on 1/6 9:39 PM by DynastyNole
Posted on 1/6 9:26 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by doofy10: What is preventing FSU from becoming the university that becomes much more difficult to get into?
FSU and UF both have fairly low minimum requirements. The people who are accepted are far above the minimum. The difference between FSU and UF is the type of students who apply. UF tends to attract students with higher GPA's and test scores because of their reputation and rankings. UF is also in a far better location than FSU to attract students. High school students care a lot about traveling and distance from their home. UF is closer to nearly ever major city in Florida except Pensacola and Panama City.
Second, GPA's and test scores of the incoming freshmen at FSU are continually going up just like UF's. You're right, however, it's not at the same rate because of UF's mostly due to the same reasons as above.
We cannot up our minimum requirements to an arbitrary level. We need to admit a certain number of students every year to make money. If we need to continue to improve our reputation and rankings and the situation will remedy itself.
We have some serious work to do though.
The reputation of our engineering school is bad. If you do a search of discussions around the web, you'll find most people recommend UCF's, USF's, and UF's engineering programs over ours. I have no facts to back this up, but I bet most students who are interested in becoming engineers tend to have higher than average GPA and test scores.
Also, our lack of a research hospital and limited medical school hurts us. Many high schoolers who are interested in becoming MD's don't realize going to FSU as an undergrad, doesn't lock you into FSU's med school. They think if they go to UF and USF for undergrad, they will have priority at the respective med schools. Many would also rather stay in one place for all of their schooling instead of going to FSU for their BS/BA then to USF or UF for their MD.
Posted on 1/7 12:20 AM | IP: Logged
I completely agree with Crazed about the FAMU-FSU E-school reputation. The association with FAMU in this crucial area just kills us. I also agree with the location advantage of Gainesville, believe it or not. Gainesville is nothing more than a real Florida backwater, but it is closer to centers of population than Tallahassee for now. This location difference is the real reason why UCF has any attraction at all to undergraduates. Amazingly, the location of UCF overcomes even its terrible faculty-student ratio and allows UF historically to skirt real reporting on any number of different factors.
What FSU needs to do is foster our superior alumni participation rate and giving plus you-know-what with regard to the association with FAMU through the Legislature. The administration and faculty of FSU know what to do elsewise.
Posted on 1/7 9:47 AM | IP: Logged
you guys are missing the key question.
He asked why FSU hasn't raised admission standards.
FSU has......SIGNIFICANTLY. Period. The original premise was incorrect.
Posted on 1/7 10:01 AM | IP: Logged
FSU hasn't raised its standards. The students who are applying have improved. If for some reason we got an extremely bad crop of applicants, we would not reject them all. Our standards would lower and we would admit them. The same is true at UF.
If we raised our minimum requirements to say a 4.0 GPA and 28 ACT or 1850 SAT, we would not get enough applicants. It'd be an interesting experiment though. I think after a few years word could get out and we could start attracting enough students. Too bad there would be several years of small incoming classes and millions of dollars being lost. It's not going to happen.
Posted on 1/7 1:54 PM | IP: Logged
Once again I agree with Crazed. Indeed I asked TK why FSU didn't just raise standards some years ago and the answer was FSU does not want only a bunch of white female students from wealthy families as freshmen.
Another question is...are the students today smarter than we were at their age or is there another reason why standards are up? Certainly one reason why standards are up is that now there are some 14M persons living in FL as opposed to 30 plus years ago and competition for the best slots is keener due to sheer numbers in the mix.
Posted on 1/7 2:36 PM | IP: Logged
I think kids are taking more AP and honors classes, probably at the recommendation of others, artificially inflating GPA's.
As for test scores, I'm not sure. Maybe ACT and SAT test prep classes have become more popular or are pushed on kids more often now? They really do improve scores.
Posted on 1/8 12:37 AM | IP: Logged
I will date myself with this answer, but when we took the SAT we just sat down and took it cold. No prep, no retakes. What you scored was it. You only took the SAT if you wanted to go out of state. Otherwise you took the Florida Twelfth Grade Placement Test to enter a Florida university. You had to score over a certain score to go to FSU and a higher score to live in an on-campus dorm. We took this test once as well.
Our stats mavens may suggest this method had higher validity than the current method. We'll see. Scores overall were much lower.
Posted on 1/8 10:03 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Batnole1: Like UF, FSU's admissions standards are at an all-time high. Also like UF, we need to maintain a minimum freshman cohort (about 6K for FSU) to generate the tuition dollars and to keep a healthy undergraduate student body.
I know we like to say that our efforts should be focused on graduate studies and research, and FSU has done a good job of improving in those areas in the last decade (see historical doctorates generated). But, the undergraduate population is also important for establishing an alumni body, generating tuition revenue, filling classrooms, fulfilling the state's higher education needs, creating school spirit, etc.
Also, Freshmen Student Body bring in the most overall on-campus revenue vs those that are Soph, Jrs and Seniors...as Freshmen are much more likely to pay high $$$$ Dorm Fees, Meal Plans, etc...which are all high profit margins for the Univ, hence why a very healthy Freshmen Class is important to any Univ bottom line.
Remember, in Fall 2011, FSU "accepted" 16,561 potential incoming Freshmen but only 6,115 eventually enrolled (approx just 37% of those accepted ended up enrolling), as most public Univ have to cast a wide net of accepted students, especially since so many will not end up enrolling.
I think some people forget and/or assume the accepted number is either lower or are completely unaware of it.
Posted on 1/9 7:21 AM | IP: Logged
Here's the thing about this...schools don't just raise admissions standards...what they do is, they try to get as many applicants as possible. The more applicants you get, the better your final class of freshman will be.
In other words, let's say that FSU has 15000 applicants for next fall, and accepts 6000. Then, in 2013, we get 30000 applicants....but we're still only accepting 6000...but from a larger pool of applicants, you'll be able to be more selective. More applicants= more GOOD applicants.
Posted on 1/10 12:45 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by MrOsceola: Here's the thing about this...schools don't just raise admissions standards...what they do is, they try to get as many applicants as possible. The more applicants you get, the better your final class of freshman will be.
In other words, let's say that FSU has 15000 applicants for next fall, and accepts 6000. Then, in 2013, we get 30000 applicants....but we're still only accepting 6000...but from a larger pool of applicants, you'll be able to be more selective. More applicants= more GOOD applicants.
Correct.
I would add that you want to also attract better quality students, and students that will end up matriculating.
Posted on 1/10 1:33 PM | IP: Logged
On a side note, I think uf has somehow done a better job of training/brainwashing their alumni and fans of uf's academic standing.
I roll my eyes when I actually hear them speak of uf as the Harvard of the South...they truly believe it.
The head of the IB program at my kids High School is a uf grad...she talks of uf as some sort of Gold Standard or pinnacle school the kids should strive for.
Posted on 1/12 11:01 AM | IP: Logged
No way in hell FSU looks at me right now. I think they have absolutely raised standards.
Posted on 1/12 3:03 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Dr. Nole: On a side note, I think uf has somehow done a better job of training/brainwashing their alumni and fans of uf's academic standing.
I roll my eyes when I actually hear them speak of uf as the Harvard of the South...they truly believe it.
The head of the IB program at my kids High School is a uf grad...she talks of uf as some sort of Gold Standard or pinnacle school the kids should strive for.
It is a combination of on-campus brainwashing and statewide control of the media due to having the state's journalism school.
The wife of a friend of mine, an FSU grad, is a local television reporter here in Tampa. She has confirmed to me the Gator bias of the newsroom because of their journalism grads. Also, she added that because the newsroom is dominated by Gators, the attitude rubs off on even neutral parties who come in from out of state.
Posted on 1/12 11:13 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Democratic Nole:
Originally posted by Dr. Nole: On a side note, I think uf has somehow done a better job of training/brainwashing their alumni and fans of uf's academic standing.
I roll my eyes when I actually hear them speak of uf as the Harvard of the South...they truly believe it.
The head of the IB program at my kids High School is a uf grad...she talks of uf as some sort of Gold Standard or pinnacle school the kids should strive for.
It is a combination of on-campus brainwashing and statewide control of the media due to having the state's journalism school.
The wife of a friend of mine, an FSU grad, is a local television reporter here in Tampa. She has confirmed to me the Gator bias of the newsroom because of their journalism grads. Also, she added that because the newsroom is dominated by Gators, the attitude rubs off on even neutral parties who come in from out of state.
Shocking.
[paging river to tell us that this just a figment of her imagination...]
Posted on 1/13 10:58 AM | IP: Logged
"In 2008, the class of 2012 arrived on campus and was known as the “best and the brightest incoming class” Florida State had ever seen. As the class of 2012 prepares to graduate this spring, they can rest easy knowing that they have left FSU in the scholarly hands of the class of 2015, who have now replaced 2012 as the most academically impressive freshman class admitted at FSU."
"The average accepted freshman not only took rigorous courses in high school, but also scored highly on standardized tests like the ACT and SAT. The average accepted ACT score was a 28 and the average SAT score was an 1871."
Originally posted by Dr. Nole: On a side note, I think uf has somehow done a better job of training/brainwashing their alumni and fans of uf's academic standing.
I roll my eyes when I actually hear them speak of uf as the Harvard of the South...they truly believe it.
The head of the IB program at my kids High School is a uf grad...she talks of uf as some sort of Gold Standard or pinnacle school the kids should strive for.
It is a combination of on-campus brainwashing and statewide control of the media due to having the state's journalism school.
The wife of a friend of mine, an FSU grad, is a local television reporter here in Tampa. She has confirmed to me the Gator bias of the newsroom because of their journalism grads. Also, she added that because the newsroom is dominated by Gators, the attitude rubs off on even neutral parties who come in from out of state.
Come on, not this again. Journalism is a very transient field. I live in Jacksonville, for example, and the Times-Union has grads from all over the country working there. And the reality is that UF does have higher academic standards for admission.
Posted on 1/13 10:30 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by river4340:
Originally posted by Democratic Nole:
Originally posted by Dr. Nole: On a side note, I think uf has somehow done a better job of training/brainwashing their alumni and fans of uf's academic standing.
I roll my eyes when I actually hear them speak of uf as the Harvard of the South...they truly believe it.
The head of the IB program at my kids High School is a uf grad...she talks of uf as some sort of Gold Standard or pinnacle school the kids should strive for.
It is a combination of on-campus brainwashing and statewide control of the media due to having the state's journalism school.
The wife of a friend of mine, an FSU grad, is a local television reporter here in Tampa. She has confirmed to me the Gator bias of the newsroom because of their journalism grads. Also, she added that because the newsroom is dominated by Gators, the attitude rubs off on even neutral parties who come in from out of state.
Come on, not this again. Journalism is a very transient field. I live in Jacksonville, for example, and the Times-Union has grads from all over the country working there. And the reality is that UF does have higher academic standards for admission.
river, Nobody argued the standards aren't higher......just that the DEGREE of the difference does not match people's assumptions......like the original poster ASSUMED above.
He was so convinced by UF's word of mouth, that he ASSUMED FSU standards haven't gone up as well at a similar rate....which it has.
It was also pointed out that the media plays a part in this. With UF's VERY highly ranked COJ and the fact FSU has none. It is incredibly naive to believe this plays no part in people's mindset. And transient has nothing to do with it. UF grads exist in great numbers throughout the state and national media. If a state paper has 25-50% UF grads and the next high university is Mizzou at 10%, you don't think UF has an influence that is more positive geared towards UF and more negative or neutral geared towards FSU....the hated rival school of UF?
To believe that you have to believe A) The media is never bias B) Media has no influence on how we think.
ReallY? You are a bright person....you can't believe that BS.
NOTHING you posted aligns with what this thread about or negates the primary arguments in it.
FSU standards HAVE gone up at a significant rate.
That all said, this thread is about FSU and it's standards, so this will NOT turn into a UF thread.
Posted on 1/14 8:54 AM | IP: Logged
We should point out UF's FTIC standards have only surpassed FSU's in the 2000s; conveniently associated with sports success.
Can you say Flutie Effect?
Posted on 1/14 11:57 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by MrOsceola: Here's the thing about this...schools don't just raise admissions standards...what they do is, they try to get as many applicants as possible. The more applicants you get, the better your final class of freshman will be.
In other words, let's say that FSU has 15000 applicants for next fall, and accepts 6000. Then, in 2013, we get 30000 applicants....but we're still only accepting 6000...but from a larger pool of applicants, you'll be able to be more selective. More applicants= more GOOD applicants.
I think some might be confusing the number of applications received and/or the percentage of those that are accepted that actually enroll.
As noted previously in this thread...for the Fall 2011 new full-time students (mostly Freshmen), FSU "accepted" 16,561 students with 37% of those accepted, (6,115) ended up enrolling.
To reach 16,000 plus acceptance pool, FSU received received over 26,000 applications (In Fall 2010, FSU received 26,037 application and "accepted" 15,498 and of those 15,498 accepted, 5,952 eventually enrolled (approx 38% of those accepted ended up enrolling at FSU that Fall).
Believe the prior example shown by the previous poster made it seem that out of all the applicants accepted, that all would enroll, which is obviously not correct (heck, not even 40% of those accepted end up enrolling).
At UF for the Fall 2011, UF had 27,295 applicants with 11,786 were accepted...eventually 6,429 ended up enrolling (approx 54% of those accepted).
Bottom line...Univ, even those like UF and FSU have to accept a large number of students just to fill their registration needs as many end up going to other Univ (for various reasons, i.e. scholarships, costs, location, etc...or not even enrolling).
This post was edited on 1/18 10:52 AM by Knight_Light
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