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I though that this deserved its own thread.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-01-15/news/fl-editorials-gov-scott-aspirational-promise-20130115_1_tuition-hikes-tuition-rates-public-universities

It sure sounds like UF has brokered a deal with Governor Scott that will be added to its overwhelming inordinate amount of taxpayer funding from the Florida Legislature compared to other state universities and its monopolies on research-oriented programs. You have to admire UF's ability to scam the Florida government into giving it exponentially more money than any other Florida school and granting it monopolies over certain higher education programs. UF has apparently now convinced Governor Scott that it's in the best interest of the State of Florida and the other state universities, including FSU, for only UF to move up in the U.S. News and World Report rankings.

"If UF can break into the top tier, all boats will rise because in higher education, you're known by the company you keep. If UF is perceived as an elite institution, it will help other Florida universities fight the bias that we don't measure up.
...


Given the politics of the university system, and FSU's prominence in the Capitol, it will be interesting to follow the governor's push to grow UF's preeminence."



We will be rooting for his success. For history tells us that if UF can break through, the competition will begin for who goes next."

This article makes it clear that the Editorial Board of the Sun-Sentinel is doing two things: (1) it has signed on as a cheerleader for UF's lobbying efforts to require the Florida Legislature and Governor to give ONLY UF what it needs to rise in the U.S. News Rankings, and (2) it has sent a shot across FSU's bow to not interfere or attempt to share with UF's efforts.

Again, this is all in the historical context of UF fighting every effort that FSU has ever made to gain programs that would put it on equal footing with UF for generating research dollars. UF has sought and obtained perpetual monopolies in academic programs through legislative mandate. This is in the historical context of UF fighting FSU on every dollar that FSU has sought from the Florida legislature to build its infrastructure. UF has sought and obtained exponentially more money from the Florida taxpayers than any other university to build its infrastructure. This is in the historical context of UF fighting FSU on every dollar that FSU has sought from the Florida legislature to be adequately funded. UF has sought and obtained exponentially more money from the Florida taxpayers for its annual budget. UF programs like IFAS and its medical programs have budgets above and beyond the regular budgets received by other Florida universities.

Mark my words. This is a money grab by UF. This will do nothing but hurt FSU.

Eric Barron better suit up and get ready for battle.


Start spreading the word among FSU alumni and supporters that this is unacceptable.
1/16 11:14 AM | IP: Logged
Thanks for posting.....Gov Scott will get an email from me that is nicely worded but basically saying that he leaves FSU behind he will lose my vote. Same email will go to my state reps.

I am a republican but my loyalty to FSu is greater
1/16 8:15 PM | IP: Logged
Agree that this is a HUGE issue for FSU President Barron.  Now is the time to push your legislators on behalf of Florida State.

There is no substitute for this kind of personal contact.  You can bet the Hogtown people are already hard at work.
1/17 12:55 PM | IP: Logged



Originally posted by Mac_Nole:
Agree that this is a HUGE issue for FSU President Barron.  Now is the time to push your legislators on behalf of Florida State.

There is no substitute for this kind of personal contact.  You can bet the Hogtown people are already hard at work.


Don't just push your legislator - mine is a uf grad, and I've written to him before about favoritism to uf.

Push Barron.  It's one of the things he's paid to do, and do well.
1/17 1:50 PM | IP: Logged
This is absolutely disgusting! How do they expect the research revenue to increase when you can't hire elite researchers in because you don't have enough money to do so. I really hope president Barron is fighting this!!
1/17 8:23 PM | IP: Logged
How many on that editorial board are UF journalism graduates or have other connections to UF?
1/18 2:54 AM | IP: Logged
Get rid of Rick Scott and replace him with a Nole! Elect Charlie Crist!
1/18 5:13 AM | IP: Logged

Originally posted by Mac_Nole:
How many on that editorial board are UF journalism graduates or have other connections to UF?
I was curious about this, too. It appears that none are UF graduates.

Meet the Sun-Sentinel's Editorial Board

1/18 6:50 AM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by 9396Nole:
Get rid of Rick Scott and replace him with a Nole! Elect Charlie Crist!
This x1000

It's the only way to ensure that this back room deal doesn't go through
1/18 8:51 AM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by TheBurningSpear:


Originally posted by 9396Nole:
Get rid of Rick Scott and replace him with a Nole! Elect Charlie Crist!
This x1000

It's the only way to ensure that this back room deal doesn't go through

Charlie Crist wasn't exactly a boon for FSU during his previous governorship. Now, he might be more favorable to the tuition differential bill, but I don't think he is going to put his neck out there for FSU. He is not like what Gov. Rick Perry is for Texas A&M. 
1/18 9:57 AM | IP: Logged
I went ahead and posted this info on the TC. Hopefully that will stir people up again to start contacting the appropriate decision makers. 
1/18 10:39 AM | IP: Logged
Anything would be an improvement over our current CEO, I mean governor.
1/18 12:22 PM | IP: Logged
The gall of the Sun Sentinel editorial board is amazing to me.  They characterize the motives of UF to improve as good and the motives of FSU to improve as bad. 

UF wants to improve its ranking -- Sun Sentinel characterizes it is a noble goal.
FSU wants to improve its ranking -- Sun Sentinel characterizes as underhanded Tallahassee politics.

If it is in the best of interest of the State of Florida to improve UF's ranking, then it is certainly in the best interest of the State of Florida to improve FSU's ranking.

In fact, what is more in the best interest of the State of Florida?  Should the state throw even more taxpayer money at UF so that it can climb a few more spots in the rankings, or should the state throw more taxpayer money at FSU where it could climb a few dozen spots in the rankings.  Is it in the best interest of the State of Florida for one state university that be ranked a little bit higher or two universities that are both ranked high? 

And FSU is the MOST EFFICIENT UNIVERSITY IN THE NATION, for goodness sakes. FSU is the best steward in the nation when it comes to taxpayer money. Why do state newspapers like this continue to attempt to cast FSU's desire to improve in a negative light? 
This is objective proof that the State of Florida gets much more bang for its buck THAN ANY OTHER UNIVERSITY by investing in FSU.




1/18 1:47 PM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by NoleOne:
The gall of the Sun Sentinel editorial board is amazing to me.  They characterize the motives of UF to improve as good and the motives of FSU to improve as bad. 

UF wants to improve its ranking -- Sun Sentinel characterizes it is a noble goal.
FSU wants to improve its ranking -- Sun Sentinel characterizes as underhanded Tallahassee politics.

If it is in the best of interest of the State of Florida to improve UF's ranking, then it is certainly in the best interest of the State of Florida to improve FSU's ranking.

In fact, what is more in the best interest of the State of Florida?  Should the state throw even more taxpayer money at UF so that it can climb a few more spots in the rankings, or should the state throw more taxpayer money at FSU where it could climb a few dozen spots in the rankings.  Is it in the best interest of the State of Florida for one state university that be ranked a little bit higher or two universities that are both ranked high? 

And FSU is the MOST EFFICIENT UNIVERSITY IN THE NATION, for goodness sakes. FSU is the best steward in the nation when it comes to taxpayer money. Why do state newspapers like this continue to attempt to cast FSU's desire to improve in a negative light? 
This is objective proof that the State of Florida gets much more bang for its buck THAN ANY OTHER UNIVERSITY by investing in FSU.





Good post. What really angers me about the editorial post is that not only are there lies, but none of their opinion is based on any corroboration of facts. They declare helping UF will help everyone else. Really? Show us where that has happened. In what other states has that model been a success?
1/18 2:41 PM | IP: Logged



Originally posted by 9396Nole:
Anything would be an improvement over our current CEO, I mean governor.



Cut out the abominable political talk about that little creep or I will email the mods.  Take it to the Raucous Caucus.
1/18 3:06 PM | IP: Logged

Florida will soon be the third most populous state in the country.  We can no longer afford to have one of our state universities get the A game and everyone else fight to be second. 

That the overall legislature cannot see this is incredible.  But it won't go away as long as the retirees who flock here and have connections to dear old Big 10 or Big 12 Alma Mater don't really care what happens.  It's up to us who grew up here and have a stake in advancing our state as a leader in higher education to make our case.
1/18 3:15 PM | IP: Logged
What little creep, Rick Scott? The guy who hasn't done anything to help advanve our universities. God forbid we hold him accountable on the academic board!
1/18 4:13 PM | IP: Logged



Originally posted by goldmom:

Florida will soon be the third most populous state in the country.  We can no longer afford to have one of our state universities get the A game and everyone else fight to be second. 

That the overall legislature cannot see this is incredible.  But it won't go away as long as the retirees who flock here and have connections to dear old Big 10 or Big 12 Alma Mater don't really care what happens.  It's up to us who grew up here and have a stake in advancing our state as a leader in higher education to make our case.


Great post. 

The give UF everything model has already been the strategy used by the State of Florida the last 75 years.  It goes without saying that it has been a complete and utter failure for higher education in Florida.  The fact that the third most populous state has exactly ZERO schools ranked in the top 50 overall and one in the top 20, 30 and even 40 publics is absolutely ridiculous.  The State of Florida should have 3 or 4 in those categories.

UF gets piles, piles and piles of money and academic monopoloies from the Florida legislature and has FAILED to become an elite university.  As the most efficient university in the country, Florida State University is the best equipped school to to lead our state into the higher education promised land.  If the Florida Legislature granted FSU anywhere near the money given to UF so that FSU could build up its research programs and infrastructure, then FSU would be generating the research dollars in no time.

Give FSU a share in in research-intensive IFAS.
Give FSU a share in research-intensive medical programs.

Properly fund FSU and you will see an institution that rockets up the rankings. 
1/18 5:50 PM | IP: Logged

Originally posted by 9396Nole:
What little creep, Rick Scott? The guy who hasn't done anything to help advanve our universities. God forbid we hold him accountable on the academic board!
You should take it to the Raucous Caucus since you're not talking academics, but rather, you're attempting to be a political troll on a non-political board. 
1/19 9:26 PM | IP: Logged
There is nothing wrong with pointing out how Rick Scott's actions conducted behind closed doors could benefit another university, possibly at FSU's expense on the FSU academic board. Furthermore it is not uncalled for to point out that a potential future rival, Charlie Crist, is a Nole. Taken in total, this is just another reason not to reelect him. And this is not simply a garden variety political issue that should be on the RC.

I am sorry if you are one of the few Rick Scott supporters left but a backroom deal that may earn him a rebuke from SACS is something relevant to this board because it has implications for FSU.

Are you defending Rick Scott? Why don't you take the issue to the RC and defend him? In short, if one can't make comments and judgements about a governor's role in education on an academic message board then what is ig good for?

This post was edited on 1/20 7:42 AM by 9396Nole

1/20 7:39 AM | IP: Logged
Certainly not contesting your right to a viewpoint, political or otherwise.

In fact, I may share some of them. But in terms of discussion opportunities, I just believe the R. C.
would create a wider array of said viewpoints.

This issue has already been raised on the Tribal Council, for example. Why not expand the pool of commentary even more?
1/20 10:31 AM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by NoleOne:



Originally posted by goldmom:

Florida will soon be the third most populous state in the country.  We can no longer afford to have one of our state universities get the A game and everyone else fight to be second. 

That the overall legislature cannot see this is incredible.  But it won't go away as long as the retirees who flock here and have connections to dear old Big 10 or Big 12 Alma Mater don't really care what happens.  It's up to us who grew up here and have a stake in advancing our state as a leader in higher education to make our case.


Great post. 

The give UF everything model has already been the strategy used by the State of Florida the last 75 years.  It goes without saying that it has been a complete and utter failure for higher education in Florida.  The fact that the third most populous state has exactly ZERO schools ranked in the top 50 overall and one in the top 20, 30 and even 40 publics is absolutely ridiculous.  The State of Florida should have 3 or 4 in those categories.

UF gets piles, piles and piles of money and academic monopoloies from the Florida legislature and has FAILED to become an elite university.  As the most efficient university in the country, Florida State University is the best equipped school to to lead our state into the higher education promised land.  If the Florida Legislature granted FSU anywhere near the money given to UF so that FSU could build up its research programs and infrastructure, then FSU would be generating the research dollars in no time.

Give FSU a share in in research-intensive IFAS.
Give FSU a share in research-intensive medical programs.

Properly fund FSU and you will see an institution that rockets up the rankings. 

UF has already made its College of Ag/IFAS departments into the best in the county.  Let's not forget that UF is also the land grant, sea grant, and space grant university in the state.
1/20 2:18 PM | IP: Logged
Sea grant? Space grant?

Because uf got its mitts on Marineland and used it to create more grants?

Mmm okay. Space? Not so much. The point is you don't get it all. At some point your alums in the Legislature aren't doing their job for the state of Florida. Heck, FSU is being pushed out of West Palm with its film technology program it affiliated with filmmaker James Cameron because FAU says we're encroaching into their territory, whatever that is.
But uf can go where and do what it wants. Not without enormous pushback. Not in this century.
Mr. Buckman is dead.
1/20 5:59 PM | IP: Logged

Originally posted by DolphinsHeatGators:



 
UF has already made its College of Ag/IFAS departments into the best in the county.  Let's not forget that UF is also the land grant, sea grant, and space grant university in the state.


Wrong - UF shares Land Grant status with FAMU.  FSU is also a Sea Grant and Space Grant university.
1/21 4:17 AM | IP: Logged
Receiving gazillions of dallars from the state did it. IFAS has a facility in every county in the state, for goodness sakes.
1/21 8:51 PM | IP: Logged


UF has already made its College of Ag/IFAS departments into the best in the county.  Let's not forget that UF is also the land grant, sea grant, and space grant university in the state.
This is the kind of misinformation that UF alumni/admin spread and FSU alumni/admin fail to address.

Several Florida schools, including FSU, are space grant universities.

FSU and UF are both sea grant universities.

FAMU and UF are land grant universities.

The secret of UF's success has been pure politics.




1/21 9:02 PM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by NoleOne:
Receiving gazillions of dallars from the state did it. IFAS has a facility in every county in the state, for goodness sakes.

Well, UF has been designated the main Ag school of the state and therefore has every right and privilege to "own" IFAS.  I say let Hogtown do its thing!
1/22 12:06 AM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by NoleOne:
This is the kind of misinformation that UF alumni/admin spread and FSU alumni/admin fail to address.
Several Florida schools, including FSU, are space grant universities.
FSU and UF are both sea grant universities.
FAMU and UF are land grant universities.
The secret of UF's success has been pure politics.


Its not misinformation.  My point is that UF is the only school that is all three (Sea, Land, and Space).  UF gets itself involved in everything research related as much as it can and it does a very good at it as well.
1/22 12:23 AM | IP: Logged
UF has no "rights".  UF is entitled to nothing.  It's not a person. 

IFAS does not belong to UF any more than the Mag Lab belongs to Florida State.  IFAS can be removed from UF like the Mag Lab was removed from MIT.

A case can be made that Florida State is more efficient than UF with state monies and therefore should be entrusted with more assets than UF.
1/22 3:54 AM | IP: Logged

Originally posted by Mac_Nole
UF has no "rights".  UF is entitled to nothing.  It's not a person. 

IFAS does not belong to UF any more than the Mag Lab belongs to Florida State.  IFAS can be removed from UF like the Mag Lab was removed from MIT.

A case can be made that Florida State is more efficient than UF with state monies and therefore should be entrusted with more assets than UF.



Sorry man, but FSU will never get IFAS.

Posted from wireless.rivals.com



Posted on 1/22 9:18 AM | IP: Logged




Originally posted by DolphinsHeatGators:




Originally posted by Mac_Nole
UF has no "rights".  UF is entitled to nothing.  It's not a person. 

IFAS does not belong to UF any more than the Mag Lab belongs to Florida State.  IFAS can be removed from UF like the Mag Lab was removed from MIT.

A case can be made that Florida State is more efficient than UF with state monies and therefore should be entrusted with more assets than UF.





Sorry man, but FSU will never get IFAS.

Posted from wireless.rivals.com




That's the whole point of this thread.  The blueprint to UF's "success" has been to bully the other state universities through its influence with the Florida legislature and governor's office.  The UF MO is to get laws passed ensuring that UF has monopolies on all-important research-intensive programs and then lobby, lobby, lobby the Florida government to prevent any form of competition under the guise of a 'avoiding wasteful duplication of facilities or programs' policy after giving UF every program under the sun. 

I suppose that the giving everything to one university policy works fine for an old southern state with a very small population or if programs are distributed among various schools so that each has a designated "speciality", but a modern state with a large and diverse population like Florida shouldn't have a higher education mission dedicated to making one single institution elite and requiring the rest to fight over the scraps.  That policy would benefit only the egos of the graduates of the single elite institution and would be detrimental to the students of every other university. 

Do you really think that it is a sound state higher education policy to pass laws that benefit the graduates of only one state university to exclusion of all others?  If UF insists on such a policy for the State of Florida, then I would submit that UF must be willing to admit 200,000 undergraduates.

Incidentally, if the State of Florida is REALLY interested in avoiding wasteful duplication of facilities or programs, then I would submit that, like other states, the all-coveted agriculture and the medical research programs should not be affiliated with any one institution and should instead be assets of the entire State University System.  Short of that, FSU supporters should use ounce of lobbying power to prevent UF from creating artificial barriers intended only to benefit UF by creating state-mandated monopolies and eliminating competition from other state universities.

This post was edited on 1/22 11:22 AM by NoleOne

1/22 11:04 AM | IP: Logged

Originally posted by DolphinsHeatGators:

Originally posted by Mac_Nole
UF has no "rights".  UF is entitled to nothing.  It's not a person. 

IFAS does not belong to UF any more than the Mag Lab belongs to Florida State.  IFAS can be removed from UF like the Mag Lab was removed from MIT.

A case can be made that Florida State is more efficient than UF with state monies and therefore should be entrusted with more assets than UF.



Sorry man, but FSU will never get IFAS.

Posted from wireless.rivals.com



Frankly, I see IFAS as saving UF's bacon.  It provides much that makes UF different, for example, from USF.

I really don't know why IFAS needs to be allocated to one particular university.  It seems it could better be run by a consortium of state schools.
1/22 11:38 AM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by NoleOne:





Originally posted by DolphinsHeatGators:







Originally posted by Mac_Nole
UF has no "rights".  UF is entitled to nothing.  It's not a person. 

IFAS does not belong to UF any more than the Mag Lab belongs to Florida State.  IFAS can be removed from UF like the Mag Lab was removed from MIT.

A case can be made that Florida State is more efficient than UF with state monies and therefore should be entrusted with more assets than UF.







Sorry man, but FSU will never get IFAS.

Posted from wireless.rivals.com





That's the whole point of this thread.  The blueprint to UF's "success" has been to bully the other state universities through its influence with the Florida legislature and governor's office.  The UF MO is to get laws passed ensuring that UF has monopolies on all-important research-intensive programs and then lobby, lobby, lobby the Florida government to prevent any form of competition under the guise of a 'avoiding wasteful duplication of facilities or programs' policy after giving UF every program under the sun. 

I suppose that the giving everything to one university policy works fine for an old southern state with a very small population or if programs are distributed among various schools so that each has a designated "speciality", but a modern state with a large and diverse population like Florida shouldn't have a higher education mission dedicated to making one single institution elite and requiring the rest to fight over the scraps.  That policy would benefit only the egos of the graduates of the single elite institution and would be detrimental to the students of every other university. 

Do you really think that it is a sound state higher education policy to pass laws that benefit the graduates of only one state university to exclusion of all others?  If UF insists on such a policy for the State of Florida, then I would submit that UF must be willing to admit 200,000 undergraduates.

Incidentally, if the State of Florida is REALLY interested in avoiding wasteful duplication of facilities or programs, then I would submit that, like other states, the all-coveted agriculture and the medical research programs should not be affiliated with any one institution and should instead be assets of the entire State University System.  Short of that, FSU supporters should use ounce of lobbying power to prevent UF from creating artificial barriers intended only to benefit UF by creating state-mandated monopolies and eliminating competition from other state universities.

This post was edited on 1/22 11:22 AM by NoleOne



FSU will never get it because it doesn't do Ag related "stuff" (research, instruction, outreach, etc...).  There are two school in the state that are designated "agriculture" schools:  UF and FAMU (its also no mistake they are the land grant schools).  You want FSU to improve by taking away from UF... especially things that UF has bolstered and made very successful (med school, IFAS, etc...)
1/23 12:37 AM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by Mac_Nole:

Originally posted by DolphinsHeatGators:

Originally posted by Mac_Nole
UF has no "rights".  UF is entitled to nothing.  It's not a person. 

IFAS does not belong to UF any more than the Mag Lab belongs to Florida State.  IFAS can be removed from UF like the Mag Lab was removed from MIT.

A case can be made that Florida State is more efficient than UF with state monies and therefore should be entrusted with more assets than UF.



Sorry man, but FSU will never get IFAS.

Posted from wireless.rivals.com



Frankly, I see IFAS as saving UF's bacon.  It provides much that makes UF different, for example, from USF.

I really don't know why IFAS needs to be allocated to one particular university.  It seems it could better be run by a consortium of state schools.
Yes, UF/IFAS is a beneficial pairing.  UF has expanded the scope of its Ag/IFAS research by having it collaborate with other UF colleges to produce even more research ideas.

Who knows if it would run better or worse if it was run by one or many state schools.  But UF has has agriculture because UF is the land grant school (along with FAMU but they have a very small stake).


This post was edited on 1/23 12:49 AM by DolphinsHeatGators

1/23 12:46 AM | IP: Logged
I would propose separating it from UF, such that it would be a distinct, non-aligned state construct under the Department of Agriculture.  No reason today why IFAS has to be tied to a particular school. 

The competition would be good for Florida agriculture.  Back when the Morrill Act was passed there was a need to consolidate resources where educated people were located, because there were few educated people.  Today Florida is substantially different.  We now have many universities and lots of academic diversity.
1/23 8:39 AM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by DolphinsHeatGators:


Originally posted by NoleOne:





Originally posted by DolphinsHeatGators:







Originally posted by Mac_Nole
UF has no "rights".  UF is entitled to nothing.  It's not a person. 

IFAS does not belong to UF any more than the Mag Lab belongs to Florida State.  IFAS can be removed from UF like the Mag Lab was removed from MIT.

A case can be made that Florida State is more efficient than UF with state monies and therefore should be entrusted with more assets than UF.







Sorry man, but FSU will never get IFAS.

Posted from wireless.rivals.com





That's the whole point of this thread.  The blueprint to UF's "success" has been to bully the other state universities through its influence with the Florida legislature and governor's office.  The UF MO is to get laws passed ensuring that UF has monopolies on all-important research-intensive programs and then lobby, lobby, lobby the Florida government to prevent any form of competition under the guise of a 'avoiding wasteful duplication of facilities or programs' policy after giving UF every program under the sun. 

I suppose that the giving everything to one university policy works fine for an old southern state with a very small population or if programs are distributed among various schools so that each has a designated "speciality", but a modern state with a large and diverse population like Florida shouldn't have a higher education mission dedicated to making one single institution elite and requiring the rest to fight over the scraps.  That policy would benefit only the egos of the graduates of the single elite institution and would be detrimental to the students of every other university. 

Do you really think that it is a sound state higher education policy to pass laws that benefit the graduates of only one state university to exclusion of all others?  If UF insists on such a policy for the State of Florida, then I would submit that UF must be willing to admit 200,000 undergraduates.

Incidentally, if the State of Florida is REALLY interested in avoiding wasteful duplication of facilities or programs, then I would submit that, like other states, the all-coveted agriculture and the medical research programs should not be affiliated with any one institution and should instead be assets of the entire State University System.  Short of that, FSU supporters should use ounce of lobbying power to prevent UF from creating artificial barriers intended only to benefit UF by creating state-mandated monopolies and eliminating competition from other state universities.

This post was edited on 1/22 11:22 AM by NoleOne



FSU will never get it because it doesn't do Ag related "stuff" (research, instruction, outreach, etc...).  There are two school in the state that are designated "agriculture" schools:  UF and FAMU (its also no mistake they are the land grant schools).  You want FSU to improve by taking away from UF... especially things that UF has bolstered and made very successful (med school, IFAS, etc...)

You miss my points entirely.  

If the State University System is really interested 
in avoiding wasteful duplication of facilities or programs, then it should make certain programs assets of the entire State University System so their isn't an incentive for individual universities to attempt to obtain or retain those programs.  Medicals schools are the best example.
 
You want FSU to improve by taking away from UF...

If that was the case, then I assume you have no problem with this strategy since it has always been UF's.  That's the whole strategy behind UF's "let's make UF and only UF a top 10 public school" effort.  You should really brush up on the history of our schools.  UF supporters took away the old FSU college of journalism.  UF supporters took away the old FSU college of engineering.  UF did everything it could to block FSU from obtaining a medical school and managed to prevent FSU from obtaining one that was research-based.  UF now wants to take away FSU's ability to improve itself by trying to designate itself the sole flagship university for the State of Florida.  UF's efforts are 100% the exclusion of all other schools in Florida.

Garbage.  I want to eliminate the impediments to FSU's progress proposed and created by UF supporters.  Removing barriers and permitting FSU to have the resources to become an elite institution literally doubles the number of students in the state university who would benefit from an elite institution.  

California has SEVEN state universities in the top 50 in US News, for goodness sakes.  Florida has zero.  

UF wants to reimpose on a permanent basis the historical good-old-boy UF-only model that has resulted in a HORRIBLE state university system.  UF wants all the programs, all the money, and all the glory to benefit only UF, to the detriment of all other students and alumni of all other Florida universities.  UF wants yet another perpetual monopoly on all the money and resources.

You really need to get off the "UF has bolstered" wagon.  That's just silly.  It's the other way around.  Having a lockdown on IFAS and medical research programs has bolstered UF.  It's the taxpayer money that went into funding these programs that has done all the bolstering.  

This post was edited on 1/23 10:56 AM by NoleOne

1/23 10:18 AM | IP: Logged

What's not being brought to the forefront is that the "historical" establishment of many of these programs were given to uf because of racism and gender bias - and believe me, I am no liberal woman spouting these things off with ease.

When Mr. Buckman succeeded in forcing his viewpoints down the throat of the Legislature he deemed FSCW's offerings as sufficient for women's higher education.  Just enough for their "pretty little heads" to learn how to teach elementary school or become nurses. 

 He did likewise in limiting FAMU's mission and only allowed them to have their additional schools with preserving the Jim Crow philosophy in place during the times of "separate but equal" - which was anything but. 

No one wants to take things away from uf. For anyone to think that only illustrates that someone is either stuck in the past, or they do not have the best interests of this state's higher education system at heart. 

When uf was allowed to create this little fiefdom because their grads ruled the Legislature all the way into the 80's, this was a different place.  We simply cannot compete with California and Texas and New York or even the states around us with one good old boy school ruling the roost.   That's a bygone luxury.  We have what - five medical schools - one private?

Texas has about a dozen.  Cali has more than that.  With a demographic kindly described as "mature" we need more doctors in this state.  Lets grow our own.  One pharmacy school?  Seriously?  

The problem here is that we must come to grips  with the fact that we've never funded higher education, but we have to grow this pie, not hoard it in the slices as currently allocated - and if that means higher tuition or some sort of tax hike, then you know what - sometimes you have to pay for things.  And higher education brings better jobs for everyone.  We don't need a school of Rocket Science to puzzle that one out.
1/23 11:32 AM | IP: Logged
goldmon,

I'm reading a good book on this called Femina Perfecta:  The Genesis of Florida State University.  

Here are a couple of quotes:

"When the Legislature met in 1947, it immediately took up the question of coeducation at the state institutions.  Opposition came from the editor of the Gainesville Sun, who claimed that coeducation for both the college and the university was a 'trumped up plot by the Tallahassee Chamber of Commerce to destroy the University of Florida.'  Both the incoming and outgoing student body presidents from UF appeared on the floor of the state House of Representatives, touted the glory of their university, and claimed that coeducation at FSCW would 'sacrifice one of the country's great women's colleges for a second rate University of Florida in Tallahassee.'  Despite these speeches, a compromise bill passed the Legislature, changing the name of Florida State College for Women to Florida State University and making the newly named institution coeducational along with the University of Florida.  In recognition of the latter's fears of the loss of superiority in the state educational system, a provision stated: 'No college, school, department or division now existing at either of said universities shall be moved to the other university and all unreasonable duplications shall be avoided.'"

UF, of course, then spent the next few decades pilfering programs from FSU (see FSU losing its College of Journalism and  College of Engineering in 1959), duplicating FSU programs (UF college of nursing established in 1956, UF College of Fine Arts established in 1972, etc.) preventing FSU from acquiring and grabbing any new programs granted by the Florida legislature (see the UF College of Medicine created in 1956 and its policy to prevent FSU from acquiring one, UF College of Public Health 1958, IFAS 1964, USF College of Medicine, College of Dentistry 1972, College of Veterinary Medicine 1976).  

From the very onset of FSU becoming coeducational again in 1947, UF's policy has been to prevent FSU from having the programs and resources to become an elite university.  .

UF has been pulling this garbage for over 60 years. Heck, they've been pulling it for over 160 years.

If you go back to the very law that created the Seminary West of the Suwannee River (FSU) and the Seminary East of the Suwannee River (UF) back in 1851, the clear intent was two create two universities of equal stature.  However, UF supporters has been seeking and obtaining political advantages to the detriment of FSU through the Florida legislature and governor from the very beginning.  


This post was edited on 1/23 4:17 PM by NoleOne

1/23 3:48 PM | IP: Logged
I don't know about 160 years - FSU was called the University of Florida in law from 1883 to 1903.  FSU was the top school in Florida until the Buckman Act of 1905.
1/23 10:07 PM | IP: Logged
I get the impression that the FSU administration isn't forward and aggressive enough to try and blaze a trail to what it wants to do and become.  Maybe FSU is happy with where it is?  Maybe its advocates are more interested in seeing FSU move up than its admins.  Whatever the case may be, I don't hear much from the FSU powers.  On the other hand, I constantly see Machen bitching and complaining about the funding and trying to find ways to bring in more revenue through different tuition ideas and other streams.  It just seems like FSU's culture is to coast.... but I maybe be wrong about this.

Like I have been saying here for years:  I want to see FSU move up with UF, but, not at the detriment of UF.  Many of you have floated the idea of taking UF's CoM/Shands away and dividing it up among other universities... same with IFAS.  If this is really your solution to improving FSU (by taking away from UF), then FSU is never going to move up.

So with that said, lets talk about the ways FSU can improve.  More money from the state?  More out of state students?  Higher tuition?
1/24 10:41 AM | IP: Logged
I'm also reading another book/paper called History of West Florida Seminary by William G. Good.  

There's some good information on the history of FSU beginning with the Legislative Act of January 24, 1851 (the act that established two Seminaries of Learning, the East and West Florida Seminaries) through the Buckman Act in 1905.  

Some quotes and notes:

*** "The statute of January 24, 1851 specifically stated that the first purpose of both the East and West Florida Seminaries was the instruction of both sexes in the art of teaching the subjects of a common school education; the second, instruction in the mechanic arts, husbandry, and agricultural chemistry; the third, instruction in the fundamental laws and the rights and duties of citizens.  In short, each Seminary was intended to be at the same time a normal school, an agricultural and mechanic institute, and a school of citizenship...."

Comments:

- It's clear that the legislative intent forming FSU and UF was to create two equal "flagship" coeducational institutions that instructed in wide variety of areas.  The institutions have identical missions from the very onset.

- The book has plenty of information on the operation of the school from the 1850's through 1901, including the Civil War.  

- There is some interesting discussions on the military training aspects of the school during the Civil War and afterwards.  

- As many know, FSU was coeducational for this entire period of time and through 1905.  The only time FSU was a girls-only school was for 42 years from 1905 through 1947.

*** In January of 1883, Governor Bloxham signed a charter that created "Florida University" in Tallahassee that was supposed to have five divisions: a college of medicine and surgery, a college of law, a theological institute, a polytechnic and normal institute and a literary college.  The college of medicine and surgery began its first session in November in 1883.  The College of Medicine moved to Jacksonville in 1885.  It doesn't appear that the college of law ever opened its doors.

*** UF declared itself the "University of Florida" and abandoned coeducation in 1903 after FSU became Florida State College in 1901.  UF became the "Agriculture College of Lake City" in 1887 when it obtained its first dormitory.

Comments:  

- I think that FSU can claim that it was the first institute of higher education in Florida known as a "university".

- The Florida government intended for Tallahassee and Florida University to have the first college of medicine and surgery, college of law and engineering school. 

*** There was a lot of investment in infrastructure in the late 1880's and early 1990's.  

*** The first true commencement (when a college actually confers degrees to students) of what would become FSU took place in June of 1891.  "The class consisted of two young women and five young men."

*** There is also some good information on the tremendous growth of the school into a fully functioning coeducational college under President Murphree from 1901 through 1905.  FSU became known as "Florida State College" on June 5, 1901.  FSU had divisions called the College, a the School for Teachers, the School of Music, the School of Oratory and Physical Culture, and the Commercial Department.  

"Within five years, the enrollment of the institution had doubled, and the faculty had more than doubled.  The plant, even though it still lacked many necessities, had been enlarged and immensely improved; and the instructional equipment, both in laboratory and library, had been built up to a marked degree of efficiency."

"The School had lost the last vestige of the old Seminary....  The air of a College was about the campus, and was seen in nothing better than the pride the students felt in their growing Florida State College, and in their own activities.  They had their glee club, a dramatic club, a baseball team, and a football squad which actually played an inter-collegiate schedule.  And on these gala occasions Dr. Murphree was the noisiest 'rooter' for the home team.  And as a souvenir and a pleasant reminder of their college days the senior published their own yearbook, the Argo."

Comments:  

- After reading this book, I completely agree with goldmom that starting in 1903 UF as we know it was built upon a foundation of sexism.  The Buckman Act was the first and most devastating political effort by UF supporters to strip FSU of its ability to fulfill its original legislative mission to be a comprehensive coeducational institution of higher education.  Using the Buckman Act, UF laid claim to many of the academic programs that reside only at UF.  The same mentality continued after 1947, when FSU became coed again. 

- You can see the power struggles between UF and FSU date back for over a hundred years.  The latest efforts by UF to engage Governor Scott are just another example of UF making a power play to try to prevent FSU from attaining an equal standing in Florida.  

- I find it fascinating that even a Florida legislature 160 years ago in a fledgling new state acknowledged and recognized that Florida needed at least two comprehensive coeducational institutions of higher learning.  However, UF in the modern age and in a populous and diverse Florida is again using its political bullying to try to create a perpetual monopolistic Bubba institution.  History continues to repeat itself!

- I think that BOTH FSU and UF should be different than other state universities in Florida.  Making FSU and UF equal flagship universities would be consistent with the law that established FSU and UF over 160 years ago.


This post was edited on 1/24 12:15 PM by NoleOne

1/24 11:50 AM | IP: Logged

Originally posted by DolphinsHeatGators:
I get the impression that the FSU administration isn't forward and aggressive enough to try and blaze a trail to what it wants to do and become.  Maybe FSU is happy with where it is?  Maybe its advocates are more interested in seeing FSU move up than its admins.  Whatever the case may be, I don't hear much from the FSU powers.  On the other hand, I constantly see Machen bitching and complaining about the funding and trying to find ways to bring in more revenue through different tuition ideas and other streams.  It just seems like FSU's culture is to coast.... but I maybe be wrong about this.

Like I have been saying here for years:  I want to see FSU move up with UF, but, not at the detriment of UF.  Many of you have floated the idea of taking UF's CoM/Shands away and dividing it up among other universities... same with IFAS.  If this is really your solution to improving FSU (by taking away from UF), then FSU is never going to move up.

So with that said, lets talk about the ways FSU can improve.  More money from the state?  More out of state students?  Higher tuition?
Machen's tuition ideas were the block tuition and the undergraduate excellence fee (or something like that).  Both failed.  FSU came up with the differential tuition plan (Wetherell) and the Eminent University plan (Barron).  Both were signed on by UF, which helped.  The differential went through, and actually so did the Eminent University until Scott vetoed it.
1/24 1:59 PM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by Batnole1:

Originally posted by DolphinsHeatGators:
I get the impression that the FSU administration isn't forward and aggressive enough to try and blaze a trail to what it wants to do and become.  Maybe FSU is happy with where it is?  Maybe its advocates are more interested in seeing FSU move up than its admins.  Whatever the case may be, I don't hear much from the FSU powers.  On the other hand, I constantly see Machen bitching and complaining about the funding and trying to find ways to bring in more revenue through different tuition ideas and other streams.  It just seems like FSU's culture is to coast.... but I maybe be wrong about this.

Like I have been saying here for years:  I want to see FSU move up with UF, but, not at the detriment of UF.  Many of you have floated the idea of taking UF's CoM/Shands away and dividing it up among other universities... same with IFAS.  If this is really your solution to improving FSU (by taking away from UF), then FSU is never going to move up.

So with that said, lets talk about the ways FSU can improve.  More money from the state?  More out of state students?  Higher tuition?
Machen's tuition ideas were the block tuition and the undergraduate excellence fee (or something like that).  Both failed.  FSU came up with the differential tuition plan (Wetherell) and the Eminent University plan (Barron).  Both were signed on by UF, which helped.  The differential went through, and actually so did the Eminent University until Scott vetoed it.

Machen's tuition ideas failed for difference reasons.. block tuition was scrapped because UF's graduation rate went up and is one of the highest in the country basically eliminating the need for block tuition.. but i dont know what that undergrad excellence fee is.  The point is there is planning and strategizing going on that I don't see coming from FSU.  It also seems like UF is doing everything it can to bring in more and more research money into the university.

Edit:  Too many typos.  I should really stop posting on messages while I'm on conference calls at work. :)

This post was edited on 1/24 9:06 PM by DolphinsHeatGators

1/24 3:48 PM | IP: Logged
The point is there is planning and strategizing going on that I don't see coming from FSU.

Batnole just proved this statement to be without merit. 

It also seems like UF is doing everything it can to bring in more and more research money into the university.

I agree with this statement, but I think you also need to add "by means that include using political influence in the state legislature to block other state universities from acquiring programs that attract research money or lobbying to limit the scope of other universities so that they can't attract research."  

The point is that UF always lead the charge against FSU's attempts to acquire programs that would allow FSU to "do everything it can to bring in more and more research" into FSU.  

For example, FSU is handicapped in research dollars because of the limited scope of the FSU College of Medicine.  The main reason the FSU College of Medicine has a limited scope is because of UF's extensive lobbying efforts against FSU when it wanted to start a college of medicine.  (The FSU/FAMU College of Engineering arrangement is FSU's other biggest handicap.)

UF also lobbies against FSU every single time it tries to acquire money from the Florida legislature to improve its infrastructure.
    

This post was edited on 1/24 4:22 PM by NoleOne

1/24 4:08 PM | IP: Logged

Perhaps I'm the only one of an age where I can recall the Legislature in session in the late 60's and beginning of the 70's when the Legislature went through its appropriations dance for the Universities, and there were elected and allegedly grown MEN on the floor of the chamber who did actually stand up and regale their fellow uf alums with statements such as "Football?  Why does a Girls School need athletic funding for FOOTBALL???" and hilarity would ensue.

It's so beyond that today that only the old fools who live in the past can't see that this state has moved way the heck beyond such a mind set. Now, I will say that uf has recognized the underfunding of Forida's state universities on the universal level  and is determined to keep what they have.  Fine.  Don't block the rest of the schools from having adequate funding and don't insult our historic prominence by trying to diminish what defines us historically as well in the hierarchy of our state.
1/24 5:28 PM | IP: Logged


Originally posted by NoleOne:
The point is there is planning and strategizing going on that I don't see coming from FSU.

Batnole just proved this statement to be without merit. 

It also seems like UF is doing everything it can to bring in more and more research money into the university.

I agree with this statement, but I think you also need to add "by means that include using political influence in the state legislature to block other state universities from acquiring programs that attract research money or lobbying to limit the scope of other universities so that they can't attract research."  

The point is that UF always lead the charge against FSU's attempts to acquire programs that would allow FSU to "do everything it can to bring in more and more research" into FSU.  

For example, FSU is handicapped in research dollars because of the limited scope of the FSU College of Medicine.  The main reason the FSU College of Medicine has a limited scope is because of UF's extensive lobbying efforts against FSU when it wanted to start a college of medicine.  (The FSU/FAMU College of Engineering arrangement is FSU's other biggest handicap.)

UF also lobbies against FSU every single time it tries to acquire money from the Florida legislature to improve its infrastructure.
    

This post was edited on 1/24 4:22 PM by NoleOne



Batnole showed one example.  But I look in the academic news and I see Machen constantly bitching about lack of funding.

UF gets a lot of money from the state for research but they also get hundreds of millions from the federal government:

http://www.flbog.edu/annual_report/2010_2011/?uni=every&type=research_expenditures

Its not all about backstabbing and handicapping other state schools for more money.  UF does everything it can.. period.  UF just wrapped up a $1.5+B campaign during one of the worst economic periods of the modern era.  Why isn't FSU starting one (although I did hear that FSU is in the silent phase of one but nothing is official).

Again, I've always been for FSU moving up in the rankings and the only way to do that is for FSU to stop being passive.
1/24 9:33 PM | IP: Logged

Originally posted by DolphinsHeatGators:


Originally posted by NoleOne:
The point is there is planning and strategizing going on that I don't see coming from FSU.

Batnole just proved this statement to be without merit. 

It also seems like UF is doing everything it can to bring in more and more research money into the university.

I agree with this statement, but I think you also need to add "by means that include using political influence in the state legislature to block other state universities from acquiring programs that attract research money or lobbying to limit the scope of other universities so that they can't attract research."  

The point is that UF always lead the charge against FSU's attempts to acquire programs that would allow FSU to "do everything it can to bring in more and more research" into FSU.  

For example, FSU is handicapped in research dollars because of the limited scope of the FSU College of Medicine.  The main reason the FSU College of Medicine has a limited scope is because of UF's extensive lobbying efforts against FSU when it wanted to start a college of medicine.  (The FSU/FAMU College of Engineering arrangement is FSU's other biggest handicap.)

UF also lobbies against FSU every single time it tries to acquire money from the Florida legislature to improve its infrastructure.
    

This post was edited on 1/24 4:22 PM by NoleOne



Batnole showed one example.  But I look in the academic news and I see Machen constantly bitching about lack of funding.

UF gets a lot of money from the state for research but they also get hundreds of millions from the federal government:

http://www.flbog.edu/annual_report/2010_2011/?uni=every&type=research_expenditures

Its not all about backstabbing and handicapping other state schools for more money.  UF does everything it can.. period.  UF just wrapped up a $1.5+B campaign during one of the worst economic periods of the modern era.  Why isn't FSU starting one (although I did hear that FSU is in the silent phase of one but nothing is official).

Again, I've always been for FSU moving up in the rankings and the only way to do that is for FSU to stop being passive.

Dolphin,
You must have missed a recent press release from FSU where Barron touted the recent US News analysis naming Florida State the most efficient University in the nation.  He said something to the effect that since FSU manages a dollar better than anyone else, imagine what we could do with the same funding as other Universities.

That crafty political statement both touted FSUs ranking and complained about the lack of funding. 

In the US News 2008 rankings, UF was ranked 49th and FSU was 112th.  In the 2013 edition, UF is 54th and FSU is 97th.  So that is a fall of 5 spots for UF and an increase of 15 for FSU.  I am glad that you are in favor of FSU moving up in the rankings because that is exactly what is happening.  The good news is that FSU has the potential to move rapidly past a number of Universities if can increase the funding anyone near the tune of UF.
1/25 4:35 PM | IP: Logged
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